ITT we talk about laser swords.
So what's the deal with synth crystals? I thought they were pretty much Sith-exclusive, not just by tradition but because the Sith were encouraged to channel their hate and anger into the crystals while forging them, meaning you were couldn't create a synth crystal without calling on the dark side. But a while back I was browsing Wookiepedia, and apparently everyone in the NJO uses synthetics? Do they ever try finding the old crystal planets, or discover new ones?
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According to Shadows of the Empire (which is a relatively early and pretty major EU work) Luke found the details for creating synthetic crystals among Obi-Wan's stuff.
(Talking about old canon, of course:)
Jedi Lightsabers are usually natural crystals, but they know how to make synthetic crystals when they need one right now.
Sith Lightsabers are usually synthetic crystals, to show in some way "Im strong, therefore Im self-sufficient".
The synthetic crystals have the color of "creator's aura" (That is why the most common color Sith Lightsabers is red, Jedi Lightsabers most common color is green or blue), natural crystal can be found only in special caves (and that knowledge is only shared between experienced and old ones force users).
Also this >>8616 , Luke make a synthetic crystal because he found instructions in Obi-Wan's stuff (and because dont know WHERE are the special caves).
>The synthetic crystals have the color of "creator's aura"
Interesting, I guess that ties in to what I read about the Sith channeling their hate into the crystal forge. Only makes sense that the reverse is true as well. What are the "auras," incidentally? What to green and blue represent? What about purple and yellow?
Isn't purple the color for the Arbiter of the order? And that's why Mace Windu had one? I remember some Star Wars Insider magazine explaining that, it was before Yoda was seen with Green for Counselor.
>Isn't purple the color for the Arbiter of the order? And that's why Mace Windu had one?
I thought he got the purple crystals as a reward from some obscure species that he helped out.
That lore might just be a reference to Kotor 1's Jedi class system where guardians start with a blue crystal, consulars start with a green crystal and sentinels start with a yellow crystal. By the time of the prequels it's safe to assume that the colors are chosen by the Jedi or the other way around in Disney's canon rather than being connected to any specific training style.
The special caves were either destroyed or heavily guarded by the Empire, as crystals capable of being used in lighsabers were banned completely throughout the galaxy by order of the Emperor. Only those the Emperor had under his thumb or the thumbs of his subordinates were allowed access to lightsabers legally.
(Talking about old canon again, of course:)
>the colors are chosen by the Jedi
>rather than being connected to any specific training style
Yep that's right, the natural crystals colors are chosen by the force user (or their master as "gift" when is the first time, sometimes).
>The special caves were either destroyed or heavily guarded by the Empire
True, a lot were destroyed and the Emperor kept some ones in secret. Yet still there were special caves in the galaxy who don't shared the same fate because they were forgotten through centuries and others never discovered. Luke found some caves like these when he grow more and restarted the jedi teachings.
I thought he got the purple lightsaber because SLJ requested it
For behind the scenes yes that's the reason. In canon or at least with old EU I think it was because he received it from some aliens like >>8637 said.
They should add that scene.
disney canon's bullshit is that the color of the saber is based on a force user's connection to the force, with blue being the purest. red is unnatural and a corruption of it. all that stuff about ranks within the order went out the window.
>with blue being the purest.
I guess Yoda's just some idiot hippy that talks weird, then? And where does Windu fit in? No wait, don't tell me, the melanin in his skin has fused with the midi-chlorians to make him more in touch with the Force than any of his pale brethren ever can be.
Checking these very Imperial dubs, too.
>expecting logic and practicality in disney star wars canon
With sith lightsabers it's even worse. Instead of using artificial crystals they have to take kyber crystals form a jedi's lightsaber and bleed it by using the darkside to turn it red and corrupt it.
Remember when Adi Gallia used to be depicted with a red lightsaber? The gap between the Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones was a really weird time for Star Wars writers.
Call me boring but I wish he'd stuck with a blue lightsaber. It looked good in Jedi Power Battles.
I remember that Ezra sort of magicked his crystal out of thin air after a long weird spiritual trip. I also remember something about the crystals in that Clone Wars episode turning a specific color after being found by younglings. It really makes me wonder who on the story team is so determined to change lightsaber crystals from technical components into magic wands. Pic related was some dumb article I got in my news feed, maybe they're right after all.
Shit’s starting to make sense…
When I first found out about how it worked in nucanon, it reminded me of the JO crystal meme. Both the Jedi and the Sith have to "charge" the crystal with their Force power. The Jedi in TCW did it as a group, and the Sith have the Rule of Two because you need a bro who also has a crystal.
Maybe Kylo's crystal is cracked because he JOed too hard.
They really should- having never actually seen that scene I quite like seeing lightsabers worked on. The other part of me though hopes disney forgets the OT exists so they don't "rework" it.
>The other part of me though hopes disney forgets the OT exists so they don't "rework" it.
Isn't that what TFA was?
>Remember when Adi Gallia used to be depicted with a red lightsaber?
The explanation given, he didn't care red was used by a forgotten group that hadn't been seen in millennium, holds up pretty well though.
>The gap between the Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones was a really weird time for Star Wars writers.
Remember the time an entire star system was jaunted forward in time so a role playing league could cover Attack of the Clones without everyone making a new character?
I mean it had the same plot.. but I'm hoping they don't remake the ACTUAL OT (with obi-wan, luke, vader, etc.) with all the new poz.
So, to summarize:
>Jedi use natural crystals because hippies, but used synths later out of necessity
>Sith use synths exclusively
>All red crystals are synth crystals but not all synth crystals are red, they can be pretty much any color.
>blade color in the old JO used to be based on what role you took in the temple, but by the fall of the Republic it was personal preference
>nucanon is and always will be shit
That all sound about right?
yeah that would do it
I guess this is the thread for it: anyone have experience with the model lightsaber companies? Which company would you go to for dueling sabers, most film-accurate hilt, best light/sound effects, etc. I've heard good things about Ultrasabers but they're also expensive as fuck.
>All red crystals are synth crystals
I remember hearing that there were natural red crystals, they were just extremely rare.
True I think Darth Vader replaced his synth crystal with a natural red one at some point before RoTJ
>Remember the time an entire star system was jaunted forward in time so a role playing league could cover Attack of the Clones without everyone making a new character?
Please tell me more it sounds insane.
Interesting, hadn't seen that scene before. Would be nice if a lost original starwars film turned up too, from 1983, rather than 1984.
Culrian system from The Living Force (Which start at the time of the Phantom Menace). I believe the explanation was that it was caused by someone disturbing a Sith artifact. I don't think it was covered all that much, if at all, outside of the Living Force modules and their accompanying notes.
Kinrath eggs produce red crystals and I think the crystal cave in KotOR had some red crystals that weren't from the eggs.
Niggers get the "Purple Drank" of lightsabers…don't question, it's canon
Surely there's little difference in quality between a synth crystal and a natural one, so why would Vader go through the effort of replacing it? Was it just for the bragging rights of having a rare crystal?
Maybe Vader was never truly a Sith in his heart and that was a little subtle or even subconscious rebellion.
Natural crystals are superior. Synth crystals are a convenience and could be faulty in comparison. Sith relied on it due lack of acess to natural crystals and that many considered a lightsaber just a tool, without any special symbology or meaning. Palpatine used them just as a tool, Vader carried his all around and gave meaning to it mostly likely an unconscious remnant of his jedi past.
>Natural crystals are superior.
Wookiepedia says otherwise, but the sources on that fact are various Sith talking about how much better they are than the Jedi, so I suppose take it with a grain of salt. Personally, the interpretation I've favored is that the Sith prefer synth crystals so that they can pump the crystals full of their anger and aggression during the forging. The process–using your own sweat and technique to craft your weapon, the physical expression of your strength–also speaks much more to Sith philosophy than finding a crystal that just popped out of a cave somewhere. As for why Vader uses one, I agree with other anons that he was trying to retain some small part of his Jedi days. He never wanted to join Sidious, after all, but to overthrow him once he had what he wanted. After he was weakened by his cybernetic overhaul post-Mustafar, he wasn't strong enough to overthrow the Emperor, and was forced to remain his apprentice.
Force Unleashed has Vader say he wants to destroy the emperor, just not with Starkiller, as early as 2 BBY.
(Hello, talking about old canon again here:)
>All red crystals are synth crystals
No, there's red natural crystals too but they're rare.
Natural and Synthetic don't have any difference, besides his origin.
>Was it just for the bragging rights of having a rare crystal?
Yep, very funny right?
After that event years ago, some die-hard fans started to fight for give a "deep explanation" and that is why nobody have a true response.
(My personal advice: stay away of die-hard fans.)
can a jedi use a red lightsaber and a sith use a blue/green lightsaber?
Well yes, though they might get odd looks.
So is infrared lightsaber a stupid idea? Note: Almost all non-humans can see infrared.?
All I know is a few of them can see in ultra-violet.
The middle of a lightsaber always seems to glow white, so it'd probably just be a white lightsaber to most races.
*meant to say humans.
Assuming for the moment lightsabers are in fact pure light, it'd be a pretty weaksauce blade if your intent is for it to be invisible; any infrared heat source will start to glow in other parts of the spectrum, including the visible, once it gets hot enough.
Isn't a lightsaber blade a superheated plasma suspended in a magnetic field, rather than a laser beam?
I guess real-life lightsaber collecting is the one thing even /sw/aggering smugglers won't admit to.
I need more sadface reaction images
If I ever buy one I'll see if this thread is still around, but it's gonna be a long time before I do. Honestly deciding on color is the hardest part for me.. that and justifying the cost.
I'm astounded that I've never seen a lightsaber with two colors in length.
Same goes for me, if I decide to try one out I'll let y'all know how it is.
I have a cheap knock off saber that changes color every time you hit it and an Obi-Wan lightsaber from the EPI merch.
I have that edgy Anakin lightsaber with an extra button that changes the blade blue or red.
Don't give disney any ideas.
Rainbow sabers when?
Of course it's canon! Do you really think someone would just edit a clean image of a lightsaber to be a different color? That's impossible!!
Sorry anon I don't have high caliber lightsabers like that. The only one I have was that Darth Vader red lightsaber I got as a kid when Revenge of the Sith came out.
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Wanna talk about Lightsaber combat?
When the next movie decides to reveal Mary Sue as a lesbian and discards the evil blue patriarchysaber and gets xer own's LGBTQP+saber.
Disney has used worse ideas than I could ever imagine.
Everything after the first game was a mistake, lore and writing wise. II had fun gameplay, but story was shit.
guys, there's no lore about mace's light saber. he got purple because they asked samuel jackson what colour he wanted and he said "give me fucking purple!"
Make the handle a big black dildo and you'll probably be closer to what they want to do then anyone would want to believe.
He got purple because he wanted to stand out the the larger battle scene. Lucas is a cuck so he let the nog have it
You laugh, but at one point poor George actually was a cuckhold. By a guy who worked on that nice ceiling in Skywalker Ranch's library, no less.
All those adoptions suddenly make sense now…
When a sterile man wants to have children, that happens. I can't really laugh at the poor guy for that.
I'm surprised so much of this thread went by without talking about it, so let's get that discussion started. This is a description of my opinion of each style.
>Form I (Shii-Cho)
Mostly just flailing around like a tard. Has the benefit of not overcommitting, but lacks both fluidity and any real method of keeping the pressure on an enemy. Is largely only justified to keep masses of melee enemies away, like rabid Sith, anti-Jedi protesters or angry fans mad because you fucked up their favorite movies. Can be made viable with an inordinate amount of training, but you're better off using that training time on a form that'll get you in fighting shape faster, and it'll still fail against master duelists and the most powerful Force users. Notable users: Plo Koon, TR8-TOR, Kathleen Kennedy
>Form II (Makashi)
Fencing. Relies mostly on thrusting attacks despite the lightsaber having a literally infinite amount of cutting edges. Not as stupid as that makes it sound considering that keeping your distance from your opponent is a good idea if they have a sword made of fucking laser beams, but fails against blasters. Notable users: Count Dooku, who's only notable because he uses it when most people are using blasters.
>Form III (Soresu)
Parry everything and rely on your opponent being stupid (or blinded by rage over your order's buttfuck retarded policies on marriage), so they'll follow you into a fucking lava river. There are some good lessons to take from Soresu, such as the fact that melee attacks should be short and quick, but most of what we see Soresu users doing is too defensive. The best way to win a battle is to end it quickly. Notable users: Obi-Wan Kenobi…and pretty much no one else because nobody at Lucasfilm/Disney knows enough about fighting to make a faster, more intense version of it.
>Form IV (Ataru)
Final Metal Gear Fantasy Wars: Revengeance. Probably the most useless form as far as real-life martial arts are concerned. Attempts to substitute acrobatics for developed bladework to no real effect. Is a contradiction because the only reason to use a sword against someone with a gun is if you're in a confined space, but Ataru's acrobatics can only be done in spacious areas. Notable users: Yoda, because he's the only one in Star Wars who can get away with this on account of being two feet tall and thus being hard to hit and having more space to move around in compared to others. Turns out size actually does matter after all.
>Form V (Shien & Djem So)
You should take big, overly committed swings because sword fighting is literally baseball. Generated from watching too many samurai movies. This tactic can work for physically strong fighters because they can use their great strength to batter through an opponent's defenses, but don't count on it against skilled fighters. Includes two variants, Shien and Djem So. Shien is a bit more defensive and doesn't feature as many power attacks, while Djem So is the most aggressive form outside of Form VII. Shien is closer to what a real martial artist would consider reasonable, unless you have a heavy mace. Notable users: Most of the main characters, including Luke and Anakin, who almost all use the Djem So variant, as does Kyle Katarn, once the old 7-form system was rediscovered in the New Republic era. Also, everyone in Jedi Academy who used the red stance because it's nearly identical to Form V.
>Form VI (Niman)
The lightsaber form for people who suck at lightsaber fighting. Everyone at the Battle of Geonosis who practiced this form died because it couldn't protect them against walking tin cans. Only works if you're strong in the Force, because this is all about using your lightsaber as a supplement for your Force powers (and/or possibly a gun), which is why Jedi Battlemaster Cin Drallig, the foremost specialist in it (who got rekt by Anakin during the attack on the Jedi Temple) said it takes 10 years of training to master. Anyone who masters this form will be a master of the Force, so this obviously doesn't lend itself to real combat. Notable users: Nobody who's still alive.
>Form VII (Juyo & Vaapad)
The ultimate lightsaber form which can only be used by those who've developed high level skills in all other forms. It's described as having disconnected staccato movements, which makes it like a highly developed version of Form I, but it's much more capable of aggression because its Vaapad variant uses the Force heavily to augment the speed and strength of the user's attacks. Notable users: Mace Windu, Darth Maul, the Tasmanian Devil
Below is what I think of the saber variants, because this post is too long.
Best way to chop yourself in half. Ray Park was allowed by George Lucas to lengthen his lightsaber's hilt when he was playing Darth Maul for exactly this reason. It'd be better as a double-ended lightsaber spear. Notable users: Darth Maul, Bastila Shan
In real life, spears were the most common weapons on ancient battlefields because of their inexpensive cost, ease of training and the fact that they do well in formation. By contrast, we don't see many of these in Star Wars because lightsaber pikes must be made of lightsaber-resistant materials to avoid having a regular lightsaber user chop them up, and those materials are rare and expensive. Notable users: Senya Tirall, Imperial Shadow Guards, and hardly anyone else because of the expense of building one. Definitely a viable choice, though.
Not as cool as it looks at first. Wielding a weapon in each hand means you can't give either one as much leverage. However, it's okay if you rely on speed and agility to produce a furious storm of lightsaber swings, or if you have four +3 Lightsaber Crystals of Big Dickness and don't have any other place to put them. Of course, you can always get cyborg arms and enhance this beyond what most people are capable of doing with it. Notable users: General Grievous, Ahsoka Tano, Boc Aseca, possibly Jaden Korr, Anakin (for an example of how not to do it)
How this doesn't constantly destroy everything around it is a mystery. That's probably why there are only two people in Star Wars who ever used them, those being Githany and Lumiya. Even more hazardous to the user than the double-bladed lightsaber. Not recommended.
Basically only useful for Form II users like Dooku. It's one of the least exotic lightsaber variants, but that also means it falls well within the parameters of the accepted styles. Notable users: See above.
Not as horrible as it sounds because a lightsaber's blade has no mass and thus the ergonomic problems of metal gunblades aren't present. Notable users: Nobody I give a shit about because fuck Disney.
If you even think about using this, you should kill yourself, you stupid faggot.
The overall best form is probably Shien. It combines the effective parries and quick attacks of Soresu with the combo potential of Ataru, while adding some power of its own. I'd love to do a commentary on hand-to-hand fighting arts like Echani and Teras Kasi, but we aren't told enough about how they work to make any real judgments, because the focus of the franchise is on lightsaber fighting. You also might consider using a regular melee weapon made of lightsaber-resistant materials, which has the benefit of not being a bright shiny laser beam that gives away your position.
Bane used a curved hilt lightsaber. It was useful outside makashi.
You can use any variant with any form, but it's not always going to work well. In real swordplay you'd never use a curved hilt sword for anything but fencing.
I feel rogue one gave a good explanation as to what Happened to all the natural Khyber crystals being that they were used to make the death star superlaser If that was an explanation in the true canon I'd be ok with it I also always had a head canon before I discovered the synth crystal origin that Luke found qui-gons saber tuned after years of never being used and gutted it for parts for his own saber (including the crystal)
that varies from place to place but I'd go for Vader vault/ parkssabers but don't go to parks expecting sound
> Best looking:
the guy doesn't sell them but he has detailed blogs on how he made them check out slothfurnace the fuckers are gorgeous
> Best sounding:
Parks saber's website is fucked. No option to pick blade color and the interface stalls when you try to buy anything. Some forum posts are also implying the owner isn't responding to emails. Is ded?
Swords have weight, lightsabers don't besides the hilt/emitter itself.
Is there an advantage to artificially weighting the hilt to give it a more sword-like feel?
huh last time i went to parks it was perfectly ok wonder if he just btfo'd
Beats me. But in any case the weight distribution would still be different from a sword, isn't?
Is there a single canon lightsaber that resembles a goddamn sword, with exactly two quillons, a functional grip, and a big fat pommel?
;^) You did say canon, anon. None of what you posted is canon anymore.
Yes, I know that. Please show me where I said that image was canon.
You asked for a "canon lightsaber that resembles a goddamn sword" Then, you posted a bunch of non-canon sabers that looked nothing like swords. The implication is that you're looking for alternatives to the picture that you posted, although you did not explicitly say as much.
>The implication is that you're looking for alternatives to the picture that you posted, although you did not explicitly say as much.
That is true. In your own words, no part of that implication ever said the image was canon.
I only used the word "canon" so you wouldn't reply with "yes, my OC that I made up three seconds ago that only exists in my head :^)", I did not expect you to be so autistic you would interpret "canon" specifically as "current Disney canon".
Is there, or has there ever been, a lightsaber in any Star Wars media that is, or has ever been, officially licensed, even partially or in a limited state or legal gray area, by the copyright holder of Star Wars at the time of its release, past and present, regardless of its canon status, that resembles a goddamn sword, with exactly two quillons, a functional grip, and a big fat pommel?
Lightfoils had guards also there was something in the lines you said in the old (read normal) canon
>The overall best form is probably Shien.
But that's assuming you're going against others bearing lightsabers. Soresu has a lot of advantages if you expect to fight mostly blaster-wielding opponents.
A helicopter blade lightsaber would be useful as a throwing weapon and absolutely nothing else. Three blades would do everything that would be useful for better though.
That actually looks kinda decent. I'm not really a fan of the usual look of the lightsabre hilts - they look very clunky and poorly designed for having been around so long. Not exactly a graceful weapon IMHO.
Don't get me started on the crossguard sabre introduced by Disney.
Have you looked at the Imperial Knight hilt design at all?
Shien is capable of handling blasters too. Luke and Anakin use Djem So and don't have trouble with blasters. Luke gets shot in the hand one time in ROTJ, but he got caught off guard and wasn't in a fighting stance. Of course they did both train with Obi-Wan. Point is, you can use Soresu's blaster deflection in other forms without losing anything and without having the problems that Soresu has. Obi-Wan's Soresu lost to Count Dooku's Makashi both times they fought (discounting TCW, but he doesn't rack up any victories against Dooku there either). When he beat Darth Maul in TPM, he hadn't yet been trained in Soresu, but rather Ataru, because Qui-Gon Jinn used Ataru and taught it to Obi-Wan, and when he beat Grievous he used a blaster. He only beat Anakin, who's normally a highly effective duelist and a superior intellect in areas stretching from engineering to military tactics, because Anakin was raging so hard he wasn't thinking straight, and Ben lost the rematch. It's important to learn a few tidbits of Soresu, but it's not really worth specializing in when those tidbits can be incorporated into better styles.
Pink curly straw best saber
Gentlemen! Behold! My genius creation! Please have mercy.
Actually this isn't too bad, except for the fact that the way you drew it makes it look like a 6-ended double dildo. The problem with real tridents and other multi-bladed polearms is that they tend to get caught on things and they have less stabbing capability because they have a wider head area and therefore can't get into gaps as easily. For lightsabers, this is much less of a problem because they cut through most things like butter.
This could actually work as a saber design if you took it more seriously and was used in a pair. Like those retarded giant shurikens in animu.
This is basically just the helicopter saber except even more retarded for the sake of memes. inb4 it's Kylo Ren's new saber in Episode IX. If you want something that works as a throwing weapon, maybe make a lightsaber fan with 5 emitters jutting forward at different angles in a war fan pattern and install a motor in your hilt so you can have your lightsaber spin. You could theoretically do this with real swords, but it's prohibitively heavy.
We don't see tonfa lightsabers or claw lightsabers much. You'd figure there would be more of those.
iirc Bane's sword was one of the kind because the hilt itself actually had no weight
There have been some threads on /tv/ that speculated on why Force users carry lightsabers when there appear to be so many things effective against them. Even discounting cortosis, phrik, zillo beast hide, etc. you can easily get past a lightsaber with flamethrowers, disruptors and sonic weapons, and avoid having your shots deflected by using slugthrowers. You could have your bullets sent back telekinetically, but the more bullets you put downrange the harder it is to do this. My idea about this is that because blasters are the standard firearm, it's what Force users can generally expect non-Force users to have, and lightsabers are effective against them. As to why blasters are the standard, they appear to have a much higher ammunition capacity than slugthrowers, and that's how they ended up being the standard firearm in the Star Wars universe despite it being easy to trace the position of a blaster wielder through either its bright bolt or the fact that it's much more expensive to silence a blaster than to silence a slugthrower. But you'd think that more people would start creating special units to deal with Jedi, like the Empire's flame troopers, or that Jedi would start carrying guns as backup weapons in case they met someone with a weapon lightsabers aren't effective against.
Out of the entire Star Wars mythos, Kyle Katarn and Jaden Korr are practically the only Jedi who do this, but there are some from other Force-based groups who have alternative ranged fighting methods. Gray Paladins use Force-augmented gunmanship, and certain people and groups specialize in telekinetically controlled throwing weapons, like the Zeison Sha discblades or Kreia's telekinetic lightsaber combat. That would be the only semi-legitimate use of the helicopter lightsaber or any of the other throwing lightsaber designs, but there are better ways to do this. It might have marginally more effectiveness against anti-lightsaber weapons than other modes of lightsaber combat, but if you have to use telekinesis constantly you're going to become fatigued sooner than somebody who's just using their lightsaber as a melee weapon or only rarely throws it, so you might as well just carry a gun. Flamethrowers that exist on present-day Earth can have ranges of 100 feet or much more, which is further away than is practical for telekinesis unless you're at cosmic levels of Force power.
>Out of the entire Star Wars mythos, Kyle Katarn and Jaden Korr are practically the only Jedi who do this
Mara Jade did it (at least in Mysteries of the Sith). X2 does it, however obscure he is.
Yeah, that's true. The concussion rifle from the Jedi Knight games is another example of a good anti-lightsaber gun, and you'll sometimes go up against someone who has one at various times in the series, but you can just use your own guns against them, and the only time you ever fight anyone who has a lightsaber in Mysteries of the Sith is on Dromund Kaas where the dark side energy is stopping all your guns from working, which kind of defeats the whole point of the discussion. Plus, Mara Jade largely gives up blasters after becoming a Jedi, unlike Kyle. The original Jedi Knight and both games after Mysteries of the Sith allow you to use normal weapons against lightsaber-wielding opponents, but it's generally not a good idea, with some exceptions. Speedrunners often use mines to defeat Boc and Jerec at the end of JK1, but this doesn't always work against Force users. The flechette shotgun and the Imperial heavy repeater in JO/JA are good choices to beat enemies with lightsabers in single or multiplayer, but in the wider Star Wars universe very few people have those. The question is why?
The heavy repeater uses "metallic bolts" as ammo, and despite being a slugthrower, it doesn't appear to operate anything like any real-life firearm, so it's hard to gauge why it's not more common when it appears to be very effective against numerous types of opponents. If you asked /k/ about it they'd probably have an aneurysm. And of course Republic Commando brings the concussion rifle back, but there aren't any enemies with lightsabers in that game. It also includes the ACP array gun, which is effectively a shotgun particle beam which would probably be useful against lightsabers. Flechette shells for shotguns on the other hand do exist in real life, as well as buckshot in general. Flechettes and their variants are expensive, but buckshot is cheap and seems like it should show up a lot more in Star Wars. However, shotguns are prone to shorter ranges (albeit not as short as most big-budget FPS games want people to believe), even with slugs. Still, more people should have them than we see. Concussion rifles are commonly said to be pricey as well, as are disruptors (and disruptors are also banned virtually everywhere) so that explains why more people don't have them. I'm not sure about sonic blasters, but in the KotOR games they're not terribly hard to come by, and since they operate on power cells, unlike flamethrowers, you should probably see a lot more of them.
Out of every anti-Force user gun you could possibly carry, sonic blasters and the Imperial heavy repeater are the most likely to be practical general-issue weapons that can also take down Force users. Of course, you can't use sonic weapons in the vacuum of space, but infantry firefights generally aren't fought in a vacuum. The heavy repeater appears to have recoil like a real gun, which would be a problem outside of a planet's gravity well, but again, it's not known how it works. It may also be that blasters are used because they're more accurate, but in the Empire's case their E-11s appear to be made by the lowest bidder. If every Imperial rifle was the award rifle from Battlefront, this would be much less mysterious.
>The question is why?
The Flechette gun is one of many things that originated in West End Games' D6 Star Wars. The model is directly based on a picture from Gundark's Fantastic Technology which is a New Republic era splatbook. Though the intro to that book mentions anything not explicitly marked can be found in the Rebellion era and the description for that item mentions rebels using it, it's entirely plausible (D6 was published before the prequels were known about and Lucas didn't allow anything but Tales of the Jedi set more than a couple of years before New Hope during that era) that it simply wasn't invented till the fall of the Republic and thus had no lightsaber users to use it on.
I've read some stories about scientists and engineers theorizing that energy weapons would be used onboard spaceships or space stations specifically because they're generally thought to be less destructive than projectile weapons, and therefore less likely to damage the ship's internal systems. But if that was the reasoning, nobody would carry lightsabers on ships because they can do more damage to a ship than almost anything else a single person can carry, and blaster bolts appear to be at least as damaging as bullets. Lasers are invisible and silent, rendering it difficult for a lightsaber to block them, not to mention actually traveling at lightspeed, so maybe troops should carry guns that shoot realistic lasers instead of whatever blaster bolts are supposed to be. Of course, Jedi could always start wearing armor to counteract this. A good set of light armor would allow them to deal with that and still have enough freedom of movement to properly use a lightsaber.
>that it simply wasn't invented till the fall of the Republic and thus had no lightsaber users to use it on.
That's very unlikely considering that they exist in real life currently. They're just impractically expensive.
In-fact, the missile launcher, heavy repeater, and ion carbine are all from WEG stuff.
I'm actually kinda partial to the idea that not everything invented after 1977 exists in the GFFA.
>I'm actually kinda partial to the idea that not everything invented after 1977 exists in the GFFA.
Flechettes were actually first experimented with back in the 70s as projectiles for underwater rifles, and galactic civilization in Star Wars has existed for over 20,000 years. They've had so much time they should have invented everything anyone can possibly invent.
The original heavy repeater from DF/JK1/MotS seems like it would be the best gun to beat both Jedi and regular troops. It shoots what are essentially mini-blaster bolts at an incredible rate, and its secondary fire is a shotgun-like blast. It's hard to beat Dark Jedi with any blaster in JK1, but out of all your blasters the heavy repeater is the best choice for that. Give it the power to charge its shots like the Bryar pistol, or add the other heavy repeater's energy grenades to it (which for some reason draw from metallic bolt ammo despite being an energy weapon) and you have something that can take down infantry, vehicles and Force users in all sorts of situations, except maybe underwater, but all guns have dramatically diminished effects underwater except for sonic blasters, and you could always make a combination gun with a sonic blaster and a regular blaster melded together. That would be more expensive than using just those weapons by themselves, but probably still cheaper than outfitting special units with flamethrowers or concussion rifles. We could probably have an entire thread about the various Jedi hunters. There's definitely enough lore to go along with it, but that's not for this thread.
Some other things to consider: Flechettes were abandoned as a primary firearm projectile because their long, narrow design made them more prone to inaccuracy on land due to wind. There are some variants such as SCMITR that are a bit better about this, though, so we can assume metallic bolts are a lot like those, and SW technology should be able to produce them without a problem. There's also the possibility of making the JO/JA slugthrower heavy repeater a recoilless design to correct the problem with recoil in space, but assuming it operates like a real-life firearm, making it recoilless would mean allowing the propellant gases to escape the gun out the back (or to the top/bottom/sides), lowering the pressure inside the barrel and reducing the projectile's speed and power, not to mention potentially spewing hot gas into the user's face. Then again, for all we know, it could be a railgun, or a souped-up air gun, or a gun that uses repulsor beams to fire projectiles. Repulsor beams are indigenous to highly advanced sci-fi settings, and that method may even be able to be used in a recoilless design, but it'd cost a pretty penny to make a repulsor small enough for that. It'd most likely need an external power source, and the repeater uses no battery power along with all other guns, so the only other possibility is if the power source is in the cartridge itself.
You could make a gun that has the best of all worlds with these technologies, but you run the risk of the guns getting pulled away or chopped to bits by Jedi. You want to stop that? Spend even more of the taxpayers' credits making your gun out of phrik and mounting them on something irremovable without specialized tools. If you're going to go to all this trouble, you might as well just start the Dark Trooper Project back up. The technical issues with power armor can be resolved easily with Star Wars technology, so there was never a real reason to cancel it in the first place, except that Palpy was mad that his factory ship heading up the project got blown up by one guy who did it for the low, low price of sex with a space Asian.
Maybe the cost of the technology would come down with more investment in it, but political realities may stop that from happening, as they have with so many pieces of military technology in real life. A big part of the reason there aren't more anti-Force user guns out there is probably that there's not enough gain from building them for any of the political factions concerned. For most of the galaxy's history, you had Force users dealing with other Force users, and normal troops rarely got involved except when they had overwhelming numbers. Then the Empire came along, and the Jedi were supposed to have been destroyed, so they can't really justify spending money to build this anti-Jedi projectile gun when they're almost always going to be fighting blaster users. The Imperial military-industrial complex is influential, but unlike the military-industrial complex in real life, they're ultimately subservient to the desires of a guy who can literally shoot lightning out of his fingertips, so there's a limit to how much pork barrel spending will be allowed because the Emperor is actually interested in having working military technology which will defeat the people they're fighting right at the moment, who for the most part are non-Force using Rebels. Furthermore, the Emperor wouldn't want anti-Force user technologies to be developed because they might be used against him. This applies to Force users in general. Then the New Republic came along, and they had the Jedi on their side, so it went back to the old status quo of relying on them to deal with enemy Force users. However, it seems that the large amount of anti-Jedi sentiment in the waning years of the Old Republic, and again in the Legacy era, should have led to a rise in the popularity of these weapons.
tl;dr on anti-lightsaber ranged weapons:
Cumbersome, uses different ammunition thus complicating logistics, relatively short range for a ranged weapon, can easily light things on fire that you didn't intend including yourself. Flamethrowers also generate bad press for the painful deaths they inflict, if you care about that.
Very expensive. Can have its shots pushed back by enemy Force users (though this is difficult) and can kill many of your own troops this way.
Force pushed away, possibly back towards you. Also more expensive than guns, and you need those explosives to deal with vehicles or masses of troops.
Can't be used in space, but are more powerful than standard weapons underwater. Neutral in other settings. If you really need a gun you can shoot in space, pass this up, but it's otherwise a good pick.
>Imperial energy heavy repeater
Can be deflected and even returned by a lightsaber, but bolts are minimally damaging, so your armor should be able to handle it if this happens, but they can wear armor too. Still a good choice for giving masses of regular troops something to fight Force users with due to its massive fire rate, and can also handle the enemy's regular troops. Could be improved as well.
>Imperial slugthrower heavy repeater
Lower ammo capacity than blasters, but otherwise a good choice in general. Good candidate for being improved over the standard version, but at high cost.
>Shotgun (flechette or standard)
Shorter range and lower fire rate than blaster rifles.
Creates bad PR for the same reason as flamethrowers and is illegal almost everywhere for this reason as well. Also none too cheap.
Political and economic factors stop some of the more generally viable of these weapons from being more widespread, but if an opportunity and a reason were presented, the GFFA would be full of those right quick.
I thought blaster bolts were just superheated gas that became plasma?
There's been disagreement about exactly what they are. People who said they're not plasma cited the fact that plasma bolts are inherently unstable due to their high temperatures making them want to expand rapidly until they decohere at very short ranges, and blaster bolts can have very long ranges. But there was a news story a few years back where they figured out how to make plasma bolts behave much better by spinning them, analogous to the way rifling spins a bullet. I can't remember where the story was, though. Spinning the plasma strengthens the electromagnetic field holding it together and enables a plasma bolt to travel for longer distances. Similar mechanisms are used to confine superheated plasma in fusion reactors. It's also notable that blasters can sometimes cause electrical equipment to malfunction, like when Luke's speeder got hit at the Battle of Hoth and R2 took a blaster hit from a stormtrooper on Endor. This fits with what highly ionized gas could do. Blasts from weapons explicitly described as being plasma weapons often behave differently from blasters, though.
Plasma makes the most sense when taken in conjunction with lightsabers–the fact that sabers can deflect blaster bolts can be attributed to plasma's magnetic properties.
Lightsabers aren't plasma though, they're fucking magic nigga I ain't gotta explain shit. Their heat would plasmolyze the air inside the beam, but nothing in any source material mentions an opposing electromagnetic field being generated by the lightsaber.
Well the same's true for blaster bolts; it's Tibanna Gas I don't gotta explain shit. But some /sw/ fans like me just can't put their autism to rest and have to find some real-world analogue for all the space magic technology. And for blasters/lightsabers, plasma makes the most sense.
According to the wookipeedia, they are basically plasma rods containted in magnetic field.
>The weapon consisted of a blade of pure plasma emitted from the hilt and suspended in a force containment field. The field contained the immense heat of the plasma, protecting the wielder, and allowed the blade to keep its shape.
>The typical lightsaber hilt consisted of a metal cylinder between twenty-four and thirty centimeters in length. However, the size of individuals hilts varied drastically, as the weapon was tailored to the creator's specific needs and preferences. The hilt had a pommel cap at the bottom which sometimes held a backup power cell. The lightsaber mechanisms were contained within the hilt. High levels of energy generated by a high-output Diatium power cell was unleashed through a series of focusing lenses and energizers that converted the energy into plasma. The plasma was projected through a set of lightsaber crystals that lent the blade its properties and allowed for the adjustment of blade length and power output. The ideal number of crystals was three, though only one was required. A power insulator was installed on the hilt to protect the wielder from any energy discharges.[38
>Once focused by the crystals, the plasma was sent through a series of field energizers and modulation circuitry within the emitter matrix that further focused it, making it into a coherent beam of energy that was projected from the blade emitter. The blade typically extended about a meter before being arced by the blade containment field back to a negatively charged fissure ringing the emitter, where it was channeled back to the power cell by a superconductor, completing the circuit. This containment field also caused the blades to make contact with other lightsabers blades without passing through like other forms of energy. This trait is seen when lightsaber wielders can block and parry other lightsaber blades.
Passing plasma through a crystal doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering that plasma has nonzero rest mass, but eh. It's fucking magic.
That seems like bad wording in the technobabble. It would make more sense for it to be PURE ENERGY up until it leaves the emitter, at which point it ionizes the atmosphere to get plasma for the blade.
How many times have we seen a named character with no Force powers try to take on a named character who has them? What's their record like? Doesn't look too good to me. As far as I know, these are the only times any such fight has ended in a win for the non-Force-powered side.
>Jango Fett vs Komari Vosa
Jango wins the fight, marking a major feather in his cap. Still, it's a tough battle for him, and Komari Vosa obviously wasn't as strong as Mace Windu.
>Cad Bane vs Ahsoka Tano
Bane managed to take Tano hostage by employing his big guy powers, and it was extremely painful for her and Anakin. Ahsoka was very inexperienced at the time though.
I'm making a lot of exclusions to get it down to only two fights. I'm excluding Jedi Knight 1, KotOR 1/2 and Battlefront games, where it's possible to beat named enemy Force users without using lightsabers or Force powers, because the characters you play as are Force-sensitive regardless of your weapon choices, or in the case of Battlefront the normal troops you play as massively outnumber the Force users. I'm also discounting Grievous because he uses lightsabers himself. Even further, I'm discounting instances where the objectives of one of the parties wasn't to actually kill the other, such as when Jango fought Obi-Wan on Kamino, where Jango was just trying to escape, or Kyle Katarn's first fight against Desann, where Desann was trying to get him to reveal the location of the Valley of the Jedi and won regardless, although Kyle had no anti-Force user weapons at the time. A fourth exclusion is in cases where a named Forceless character fought a Force user while being backed up by Force users. Obviously the initial question excludes cases where nameless or named Jedi were killed by hordes of generally nameless infantry, such as the Mandalorian Wars or Order 66. So basically, the only people who've ever been able to pull this off are bounty hunters. It'd be interesting to see Jedi going against Dark Troopers with their lightsabers, but if they were smart they'd just use guns like Kyle did.
>but if they were smart they'd just use guns like Kyle did.
I'm pretty sure NJO Jedi would occasionally use blasters when necessary. When Luke started things back up again he explicitly changed a few of the policies to be more utilitarian over traditional. He and Ben also used blasters a few times during the Fate of the Jedi series I get the impression that YV and post-YV content isn't well-appreciated around here, fuck that. Legacy of the Force and FotJ were my first exposures to the EU and I've got a soft spot for them because of that.
we prefer the EU to disney's shit, but we don't pretend it's necessarily good or great
i get what you're saying, but you have to remember that apart from having the ability to see into the future and have enhanced senses, jedi would be just as defenseless as two gunners fighting each other. even then, they can't block literally every shot, especially when a barrage is being fired on them.
It just makes you wonder why a single lightsaber was ever standard in the Jedi Order. Even assuming that more Jedi didn't start carrying guns or integrating guns into their lightsabers, multiple sabers should be much more common because you can use one of them as a throwing weapon to deal with people who brought an anti-lightsaber weapon, while keeping the other in your hands. Then again the Jedi have sometimes been shown being incredibly incompetent in general. Granted the Jedi didn't often go up against weapons that are good at getting past a lightsaber, but it's better to be prepared.
Star Wars: Bounty Hunter has a dark Jedi as the final boss. Jango canonically wins and is selected as the clone daddy because of it.
The Jedi of that era were mostly glorified diplomats. They never fought anything more than the odd gang members with any serious frequency.
> I'm excluding Jedi Knight 1, KotOR 1/2 and Battlefront games, where it's possible to beat named enemy Force users without using lightsabers or Force powers, because the characters you play as are Force-sensitive regardless of your weapon choices, or in the case of Battlefront the normal troops you play as massively outnumber the Force users.
This is a non-sequitur to the thread, but what I think is really interesting is how in Movie Battles 2 you've got the balance set up such that all the characters fight virtually the same as they do in the series - with the exception nobody's forced to fight as dumb as they do in the series. Non-force users fighting Jedi will do things like using careful movement and positioning to keep a Jedi from getting close and to limit how hard a Jedi's force powers will hit them, spreading out to force a Jedi to divide his attention between them and their comrades, laying down suppressive fire to wear down a Jedi's guard, and ducking and weaving between a Jedi's attacks in the worst case scenario of a Jedi getting into attacking distance.
>Star Wars: Bounty Hunter has a dark Jedi as the final boss.
That Dark Jedi is Komari Vosa.
There are a couple weapons left out of >>9609 and >>9610, and a couple of mistakes. Kit Fisto is the Form I master, not Plo Koon. It also doesn't cover lightclaws or light-tonfas, but those are hardly worth mentioning because they suck at dealing with blasters on account of their odd grip rendering deflection movements difficult. There are some lacking details about the variant weapons as well, such as which forms they tended to be used with.
Aside from the previously mentioned Form II's use of curved-hilt lightsabers, Darth Bane used one with Form V as >>9612 says, though curved-hilt can be used with any style. They're not subject to the weight balance of a real fencing weapon, so much more can be done with them. Double sabers are a bit more restrictive, but still fairly versatile. The only styles that really clash with double sabers are Form II due to its fencing principles and Djem So due to its brute strength, but Shien is usable with double sabers, as Ahsoka does, having been taught Form V by Anakin. In particular, the reverse grip she uses with her offhand saber comes from Shien. Saberstaffs are hard to use with Form I because saberstaffs require large, sweeping movements, unlike the quick cuts of Form I, and obviously you can't fence with them as Form II does. All other styles are usable with it, though. Lightspears are hard to place in one style because they're so different from other lightsaber variants. They can keep enemies away very well with long thrusts, giving them strong defense and aspects of all the first three forms. Form IV could be used with them, but you'll have the same problems you would with Form IV in general. Form V is the only known style to be associated with lightspears, as Kazdan Paratus uses one with Shien in The Force Unleashed. It's not known what style Senya Tirall or the Imperial Shadow Guards use, but a lightspear is a good choice for Shien because Shien is supposed to fail against a single opponent, whereas thrusting attacks and long reach in general are generally best against a single opponent, so a lightspear can compensate for Shien's failings. There isn't really a good reason given as to why Shien would fail in duels, though. Its reverse grip isn't mandatory.
don't forget the jedi went a thousand years without facing a dark force user, as >>10237 said they only basically handled disputes and faced gangsters at the worst.
You mean "Sith", there was plenty or dark/fallen Jedi around that millennia.
I think lightspears should have their own separate style, much like double sabers do with Jar'Kai. The 7-form system is too specific to swordplay to be applied to lances, because spear fighting has traits of all 7 forms. Anyone else want to help build this, or any other weapon-specific form? Or even another regular lightsaber form you think should exist.
On that note, I've seen some videos of people apparently running real-life lightsaber academies, for what purpose I have no idea because lightsabers aren't (yet) a real weapon. Is it just the logical conclusion of LARPing? Is anyone learning anything useful from them? Why would anyone do this?
It's just LARPing, I would assume; academies for fencing done with prop sabers that Ultrasabers and similar manufacture. Since "real" lightsabers have a blade that's essentially weightless, regular combat manuals wouldn't have much use because they don't take this into account. If lightsabers suddenly became real these fuckers wouldn't be much better at handling them than anyone else.
You could potentially make lightsaber props out of some very light materials and get something that, while not quite having a weightless blade, will come close enough. I don't know if any of the people who make replica lightsabers have done that, though. This is part of the reason that making a lightlance fighting style would be achievable. In a lightlance, the weight balance is going to be nearly identical to a real spear because most of the weight is in the shaft, so quite a few moves from real spear arts would be usable. The task is mainly to determine where the differences lie.
To the best of my knowledge most "combat" prop blades are made of a thick polycarbonate tubing. With some back-of-the-envelope calculations I'd put the weight of the blade itself at just under two pounds.
>This is part of the reason that making a lightlance fighting style would be achievable. In a lightlance, the weight balance is going to be nearly identical to a real spear because most of the weight is in the shaft, so quite a few moves from real spear arts would be usable. The task is mainly to determine where the differences lie.
I'd say that the biggest difference lies in a lightlance's blade having a perfect cutting edge from every angle. So it would have all the slashing potential of a pollaxe without the added weight at the head. I don't really know shit about HEMA, so take my words words with a grain of salt, but I could see this as manifesting with a lot more wide, sweeping gestures than a regular spear would permit, with the intent of keeping the enemy at the edge of your reach.
Wookieepedia claims that a lightlance is handled much like a saberstaff. There are a number of problems with that statement, mostly the weight distribution and the lack of a second blade allowing many maneuvers a saberstaff won't, but also disallowing others because of the shaft's greater length. Still, the forms we usually see saberstaffs being used with will have the most to contribute to a lightlance style because they're both very aggressive weapon types. Saberstaffs are usually used with Forms IV, V and VII. You hardly ever see anyone with them who uses I-III or VI, with Exar Kun being the only real exception as a Form VI user who was also the first Star Wars character to use a saberstaff. All those wide, sweeping gestures are what you do in Form I, and to some extent Djem So, but I don't think they're as viable with a lightlance. With a regular lightsaber, the weight of it is much less, so it's easier to get it back into position, but taking big swings is still risky. Most of the time you're going to want to keep the spearhead trained on your opponent.
Perhaps "sweeping" is the wrong word. Better to say that, thanks to the omnidirectional cutting edge, your slash attacks actually have a snowball's chance in hell of seriously harming your opponent so you have the option of doing something with your spear besides focusing on thrusts and jabs. Like I said before I'm hardly the personal combat expert. The way I envisioned the slashing motion being used is slicing across your opponent's pass if he tries to dodge past your spear point and inside your reach; you could do this with a regular spear but not with as much effect.
Sounds like a crosscut. Crosscuts tend to be used as followup moves after deflecting an attack.
Since anyone wanting to help create a lightspear style should be looking primarily at Ataru, Shien and Juyo, anyone who knows a lot about characters who use those styles, regardless of which weapon they use, should comment on that. This will most likely not include Djem So and definitely not Vaapad, obviously. We can exclude Niman as well because it's focused on Force use, just not to the extent of Vaapad. Out of these styles, the one best understood is undoubtedly Form V, because the main characters almost all use it and it's heavily based on my chinese cartoons with superior tamahagane folded over 9000 times to crush filthy waitu piggu doggos. The only other style based on a real sword discipline is Form II, which isn't applicable here in any but the broadest sense. Obviously anyone who has training in real martial arts is welcome to speak on it.
Out of these three, Form IV and VII are the ones I don't understand as much. Form IV may be a bit showy, but Qui-Gon's Ataru is substantially less acrobatic. Then again, it also got him killed when he fought Maul. Maybe a different choice of weapon would have changed the outcome of that fight. Anyone care to speculate on that? Looking at how Qui-Gon fights Maul in Episode I versus how Yoda fights Dooku in Episode II, it looks like two completely different styles, or at least a two-variant style like V or VII. I don't get how they managed to shoehorn the two together as one style. Form VII on the other hand is one that almost nobody understands because so few Force users have ever reached the level of expertise where they can learn it.
Probably the biggest thing to worry about with any lightspear style is blasters. Form II's fencing has the same pointy tendencies as spearmanship and it's notoriously ineffective against blasters and especially so against any of the guns tailored to fighting lightsabers. Saberstaffs don't have this problem because they have more blade length to deflect blaster bolts with and are generally used with less emphasis on thrusting. There's going to have to be at least some slashing, whirling movements because those are the only real way to beat blasters with a long weapon.
Well as far as Saga Edition mechanics go…
Shii-Cho, for some reason, improves blocking and deflecting which you shouldn't be doing because a lightsaber pike imposes penalties on that.
Makashi is incompatible as it requires one handing.
Soresu is also a bonus to block/deflect, but at least it should actually be such.
Ataru gives dex to Damage and is mandatory if you're a Jedi Knight dependant on Dex to Hit to actually hurt anything and useless if not. It's a good choice, as dex to damage pairs well with Combat Reflexes (extra Attacks of Opportunity for high dex) which goes well with reach and it boosts Hawk-Bat Swoop (Move, hit opponent. If you know Ataru you can move after attacking too) which pairs well with reach. UNLESS you read one line ("When using a light melee weapon or a lightsaber, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls.") to mean a normal lightsaber instead of the lightsaber weapon group, then they're totally incompatible.
Niman is also useless because it's just a tiny defense buff and the force powers it boosts depend on adjacent to target. If you allowed the force powers to work it would be decent: pulling a guy onto your pike and empaleing him on it is pretty cool. Niman is a prerequisite for Jar'Kai and you can blow a feat to make a lightsaber pike a double weapon, but you should just use a double-bladed one and save the feat.
Shien is yet another useless. It's focused on bonuses to deflect that a lightsaber pike takes penalties on. Djem So (which is a seperate ability in the system) is based on reacting being hit in melee and totally useless unless fighting another polearm user.
Juyo works fine. Juyo itself only gives you a reroll on your hit chance once an encounter, which is nice but not huge. The force powers it boosts (it doesn't actually boost them, it "only" stops them from being dark side powers) work pretty well, allowing you to either add die to an attack or to roll twice on too-hit. Vaapad is a seperate ability with Juyo as a requirement, (Though how the hell you get access is a big question given the only person Windu taught it to went crazy and fell into a coma after learning it.) works fine with an improved critical range (which increases the benefit of rerolling attack) and the boosted force powers let you auto-crit if you're accurate enough or move and attack an enemy as though it were flat-footed and possibly flanked.
Note: Styles aren't mutually exclusive in Saga Edition and can be used at the same time, it just eats more of your talents to learn more than one. Luke's official build as grandmaster has both Djem So and Ataru.
I was thinking of something based on real martial arts instead of RPG mechanics, because RPG mechanics are sometimes blatantly at odds with how weapons are actually supposed to be used. I was hoping to develop a kata or two at least. That said, this stuff essentially says that for polearm users, only Ataru and Juyo are worthwhile. I suppose one way to improve blast deflection would be to use a double-ended lightsaber pike, but is there a way to do that without using a double-ender or spending a feat on a style that doesn't contribute to the build overall? Even if it's not to the level of Soresu, to be able to have at least a decent chance of deflecting blaster bolts with a polearm would be a huge plus. Also, in KotOR 2's mechanics, the only styles really worth using are Shii-Cho and Niman because they have no negatives, but the game is easy anyway as the proper build can make you an unstoppable tank, so what style you use doesn't matter.
>you can blow a feat to make a lightsaber pike a double weapon, but you should just use a double-bladed one and save the feat.
I can't think of anyone with two arms in either real life or fiction who ever used two spears at a time.
It'd be nice to have a videogame where you play as someone with a lightspear. The Force Unleashed seemed to be hinting at it when Starkiller takes one off of the recently deceased Kazdan Paratus and tries to repair it, but fails. It's like the devs were saying they thought about including that but they just couldn't be arsed, or it was too hard for them to make it work. The only games I know of where you can use one aren't even Star Wars games, but Mega Man games. In Mega Man X7 and X8, Zero gets a lightspear called the D-Glaive, and in the first Mega Man Zero he gets the Triple Rod. As X7 is the only one of these set in a 3D environment and it's often considered the worst Mega Man game, it's questionable how much you can learn from this, but it's interesting to talk about the fighting styles of characters from other stories and see which lightsaber style they're the closest to. Most video game characters who use melee weapons extensively would probably be Ataru users because it's the flashiest style and game devs need to impress the ADD kiddies, and Zero definitely jumps around enough to fit into this mold.
One benefit of doing that only really applies when you're fighting enemies with guns, as Zero usually does, because it makes you much harder to hit at long ranges and allows you to close on a gun-using enemy at an oblique angle which will be difficult for them to defend against, but an enemy with a lightsaber will be able to put up a much stronger defense against it. In an example of lightsaber style descriptions not conforming to reality, Wookieepedia oddly claims that this isn't effective against blasters or multiple opponents, when anyone who's ever actually fought multiple opponents knows that staying mobile is the key to beating them. Go to YouTube and watch some videos of street fights with one versus two, three or more, and the ones who don't get beaten to a pulp keep on the move constantly, or else find a position where it's difficult for anyone to pursue them.
Thinking about this makes me wonder if there'd be an audience for a versus battles thread because we need to know if Zero could beat up a Jedi. My guess is hell yes in most cases.
The Force Unleashed includes a third Form V variant called Sith Shien which is used by Starkiller, and by extension Soul Calibur IV also has it despite being non-canon. This may be more suitable both for a lightsaber pike and in general than standard Shien. The reasons regular Shien does poorly in duels but Starkiller wins so many duels may be explainable by the differences between standard and Sith Shien, or it could just be that Starkiller is also trained in Juyo, or a combination of the two. In Jedi Academy, Tavion uses a more aggressive fast style which is purportedly similar to Shien, perhaps also being Sith Shien. The fast style and the strong style incorporate parts of Ataru, meaning they're worth considering for a pike. Wookieepedia has no details on Sith Shien, but it may be possible to draw some conclusions about it by observing the differences between Starkiller's fighting style and how others use Shien, as well as between Tavion and both Shien users and Kyle Katarn/Jaden Korr. We can also possibly look at how the Apprentice and the other Star Wars characters do against the Soul Calibur characters, who mostly use real historical fighting styles. However, guest characters are generally banned in tournaments, lightsabers should be doing much more damage than they do in SCIV anyway, and again, SCIV isn't Star Wars canon, so anything garnered from it should be taken with a grain of salt.
Most importantly, in real swordsmanship, one of the most reliable methods a swordsman can use against a spearman is reverse grip, because it gives extra leverage to deflect the spear. This would make Shien users better at countering lightspears than any other style, which explains how Starkiller beat Kazdan Paratus and the Imperial Royal Guard members who had lightspears. Obviously this problem must be addressed to build a working specialized lightspear form, but this alone isn't enough. Starkiller also defeats several powerful opponents who use regular lightsabers, including Shaak Ti, Darth Vader and even the Emperor, although the rumor from Sam Witwer himself has it that TFU is of dubious canonicity in general, and from an in-universe perspective the whole game is one of those tall tales that gets more exaggerated with each retelling. Even if there's no variant of Shien that ends up being useful with polearms, it's vital to understand it. Know your enemy and know yourself, as Sun Tzu says.
>I can't think of anyone with two arms in either real life or fiction who ever used two spears at a time.
"Double weapon" means beating people with both ends of the weapon. In this case smacking them with the haft, which is something real spears are used for.
>you can blow a feat to make a lightsaber pike a double weapon, but you should just use a double-bladed one and save the feat.
The way that's worded contrasts "double weapon" with a double-ended pike, making it sound like two weapons.
Anyway, after going over some footage from The Force Unleashed and Soul Calibur IV again, it seems to me that the main difference between Jedi Shien and Sith Shien is in Sith Shien's much greater number of physical attacks, including grabs, kicks, throws, saber throws and combinations of all of the above. Except for saber throws, Jedi Shien users are almost never seen doing these things - or users of other forms, for that matter. In the movies released so far, only Darth Maul and Luke have ever used a punch or a kick in a lightsaber duel. Many of Shien's movements can be performed either with standard grip or reverse grip, but reverse grip seems to enable an easier transition into one of these techniques because you don't have to move the blade out of the way first. The Apprentice is generally considered a mid-tier character in SCIV, but this may not be reflective of his full potential due to his odd fighting style that few players are willing to try. There are two main pole weapon users in Soul Calibur, Kilik and Seung Mina, who are both below him on the tier list. Meanwhile, Yoda is at the very bottom of the tier list, while Darth Vader is quite high on it. Oddly enough, the recently announced Soul Calibur VI is introducing a character who uses a double-bladed sword, so he'll probably fight like Maul. That's something to keep an eye on.
Sith Shien would likely be best understood in terms of real martial arts by someone who has extensive training in grappling arts like judo or Brazilian jiu-jitsu. I've had martial arts training, but it's primarily in striking arts. As far as I can tell, the only part of Shien or Sith Shien which could possibly be applicable to a polearm is its seeming emphasis on deft footwork, which is coupled with the added defensive capability of the reverse grip to get in close and execute hand-to-hand moves on lightsaber-wielding opponents. Forms I-III are exclusively bladework-focused, IV has jump-work instead of footwork, and both IV and VI barely even have bladework. V and VII are the only forms which feature any notable degree of footwork. Further, the difference between Qui-Gon's Ataru and Yoda's can probably be put down to Yoda's version of the style having a more offensive emphasis, while Qui-Gon's is more defensive. This sounds somewhat counterintuitive given their character traits, with Yoda being dedicated to the Jedi way while Qui-Gon basically does whatever he wants. Still, it makes sense because of Yoda's small stature allowing him to launch attacks with little risk of being hit in return. I've done a bit of research into capoeira, the real-world martial art most closely approximating Ataru (its lack of weapon focus notwithstanding) in the past because I wondered why anyone would want to use a style that has so little economy of motion. It turns out the answer is that capoeira's dancelike ethos is effective for escape and repositioning, making it a good defensive tool, but it has a poor record when it comes to offense, and like Ataru, it can only be done in areas where there's room to maneuver. Despite Qui-Gon's loss to Maul due to the cramped conditions in the Theed Palace reactor core, his variation of Ataru is probably better overall for anyone who isn't two feet tall. For anyone besides Yoda, trying to jump on an enemy Force user's head like you're Mario isn't likely to work except maybe as a finisher.
Obviously, if you have a polearm, you're trying to avoid getting in too close, but the same footwork that can take you closer can also move you in a different direction. In TFU, Kazdan Paratus and the Imperial Royal Guards have different ways of handling footwork. Paratus has cybernetic limbs that enable him to do all sorts of weird General Grievous-type things, while the Imperial Royal Guards don't actually seem to care much about footwork because they're in such a rush to die for their glorious Emperor. Paratus seems to be much more aggressive than the Royal Guards, attacking frequently with both slashing and thrusting, while the Royal Guards are more defensive-minded, attacking mostly with quick pokes when an opportunity presents itself. This seems to go against the description of Shien, and it may be due to Paratus having more limbs than the Guards, as Grievous is also a very aggressive fighter. I think the footwork is going to be the main part of this style, because it's going to enable the proper positioning to exploit the advantages of a spear. On the subject of Shien in general, I think it's perfectly capable of winning in duels. Maybe the reason it doesn't is that, as with so many other things, the Jedi aren't teaching it properly.
By the way, what should we call this specialized lightsaber pike form? The use of dual sabers is enough of a specialized form to get the name Jar'Kai. Ideally it should sound like an existing form name while being as phallic as possible both because it's a spear form and to be maximally triggering to Tumblrinas and soyboys. I'd just name it "Feminists Go Fuck Yourselves" but that takes too long to say.
There should be more sword-and-board Jedi. Even the Gungans were able to come up with physical shields capable of blocking blaster bolts. Why don't Jedi use riot shields covered with shield generators to block lightsabers?
If triggering SJWs is the goal, you won't have to work very hard. I could blindfold myself and throw a baseball and hit something that triggers SJWs. It could be anything and they'd be offended by it, both because they're easily offended in general and because they're particularly offended by anything that requires more talent than they have, which includes creating martial arts styles.
Well, I've been hard at work on my lightspear
spergfest of Sonic OC-tier autism fighting style, and I've pulled together some ideas from a few different fighting disciplines to make what I think is a coherent framework to build further development on, if anyone's actually interested. This is mostly just the philosophy of the style, though. When I can find some time, I'll talk about how I theorize the body mechanics of specific techniques to work and maybe attempt to develop a basic kata.
First of all, lightsaber pike users should seriously consider using a standard-sized lightsaber blade instead of the short blade most lightspear users are depicted with, as it gives no weight penalty and aids in poking and saber throws, as well as giving some much-needed help with blaster deflection. Even if you have to shorten the shaft a bit to avoid slashing up the floor, there are major benefits from having a standard-sized blade. This would blur the line between a pike and a long-handle lightsaber by creating a nagamaki-like variant. It should be stressed that a pike and a long-handle aren't the same; Gorc from the first Jedi Knight has a long-handled (and long-bladed) lightsaber because he's huge, and some of the player-selectable non-saberstaff hilts in Jedi Academy are very long, but those aren't polearms by any means. Does the RPG make any provisions for standard-sized blades on a lightspear? And even if you use a standard-sized blade on a standard-sized shaft, the maintenance droids will fix the floor anyway, and you gain the ability to perform many low attacks from a long range, which will be very hard for a standard lightsaber to defend against. The style will be doable with any type of pike, though.
Second, we need to look at what we're taking from each existing lightsaber style. Our use of Juyo will be somewhat limited because as demonstrated by Maul, Galen Marek and optionally the Exile, its bladework is too much for a spearfighter to replicate, but its footwork and general strategy should still be taken into account. Other bladework-focused styles like Soresu or Makashi were already ruled out for other reasons, namely a lack of strong offense. However, upon further reflection, I've seen something I didn't see before, which is exactly how Shien's bladework can be done with a spear, and how Shien is unique in this regard, or nearly so. This will be elaborated on later, but for now it's enough that you remember that both Galen Marek and Kazdan Paratus have Shien training. So what we're left with is a style made of the positioning strategies of Ataru, Juyo's powerful flurry of attacks and the bladework of Shien with a bit more attention paid to thrusting, because Makashi isn't the only style you can stab with. A lightspear fighter should be relentless on the offensive, and this combination will allow that.
Third, we incorporate the idea of simultaneous attack and defense from kung fu. This is important in general, but it's also a concept we need because of the styles a spear is restricted to. A spear already does this by its very nature, but if not properly utilized, it'll fail. To put this into practice, we need to be mindful of the transitions between one technique and another. All fighting styles are at least partly based on this, but you can see varying levels of focus on it from one style to the next, whether you're talking about a real martial art or something constructed for a fantasy world. In lightsaber combat, we can see that Shii-Cho puts no emphasis on this, and Soresu, although employing the concept for its defense, doesn't really chain attacks together for the simple reason that Soresu hardly ever actually attacks, which is where Soresu differs from the New Jedi Order's fast style. Ataru is a hit-and-run style that has an attack followed by a repositioning followed by another attack, and Wookieepedia says that Ataru users are advised to withdraw if they can't win quickly. Makashi and Djem So are able to chain attacks to some extent, but neither one really makes a big deal about it. Makashi is about countering bladework through precision maneuvers, and Djem So is a power style, so the idea there is that you beat down the opponent's defenses quickly so chaining attacks becomes unnecessary. Juyo, by contrast, opts for launching so many attacks that even if they don't all hit, the defender is overwhelmed by their number and one will eventually get through. By doing this, you also defend yourself because the opponent is too busy trying to deflect your attacks to launch any of their own. Saberstaffs are naturally good at this, which is why you see Form VII masters use them more often than others. If Makashi is a sniper rifle and Djem So is a rocket launcher, Juyo is a machine gun, and machine guns can lay down suppressive fire, which is something sniper rifles and rocket launchers can't do. Kazdan Paratus actually does a decent job of demonstrating this despite practicing Shien, but the lightspear technique he shows could be made even more aggressive to bring it into the realm of Juyo, and this can be done by paying attention to the footwork. The footwork is going to govern all of the transitions you can do, which are all-important to the style. You should be attacking and moving in unison to maintain control of the situation, and if your footwork isn't correct, your rhythm will be interrupted. Exactly how these tactics are going to work will be described in a later post.
BTW the best Sonic character is Knuckles because he doesn't chuckle and he's friendly to the people of Uganda. Now I'm going to research further by consulting the valuable reference, The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force & Knuckles. Subsection 3 (unlockable via lootbox) has a segment on how to use a Chaos Emerald as a lightsaber crystal. It's in the chapter called Rituals For Gaining Godlike Power With Glowing Rocks.
>By the way, what should we call this specialized lightsaber pike form?
Several of the saber forms have Nipponese names, and all of them fit within the phonetics even if they don't mean anything
>Makashi = to defeat
>Ataru = to strike
Perhaps Sasu (To stab)?
That might be a good candidate. There's a Japanese polearm called a sasumata with sasu as its root word. It was often used by the police forces of feudal Japan to restrain criminals, but the sasumata wasn't an offensive weapon, so it doesn't really fit with the ferocious assault this style is meant to be. Still, we don't have to abide by the precise intent of the original word, because in this case the original word's intent seems to clash with the weapon named for it. The name could also be lengthened to Sasuma so it's not just a straight port of a Japanese word. How many of the form names actually mean something?
Oh, and we may want to run any name we come up with through a search engine to make sure it isn't a brand of tampon or something. Just imagine telling a rabid Sith Lord you studied Tampon Fu.
>find female Sith Lord
>mention Tampon Fu
>gets so triggered about toxic masculinity and muh womyn tax that you're able to beat her with ease.
How many female Sith Lords have there even been? Isn't it just Kreia and Lumiya who were actual Sith Lords and not just Dark Jedi? And Kreia isn't the Tumblr type. Presumably there are few female Sith Lords because implying that a woman could ever do anything villainous is unacceptable. That seems like a good topic for its own thread.
There were also Darths Zannah and Cognus(sp?) of the Bane line, and some from the TOR period. Keep in mind that "Bane line" means concentrated POWAH, and that Zannah was Bane's apprentice. Certainly no pushover.
Yeah, I forgot about her. I never played TOR or read any of those Bane books though. Is he a big guy?
Anyway, I'm almost done with my lightlance writeup. It'll be long, but it's not going to skimp on the detail.
>Is he a big guy?
>In the movies released so far, only Darth Maul and Luke have ever used a punch or a kick in a lightsaber duel.
Actually there are a few other times when this happens. Obi-Wan kicks Maul once, and Anakin wins against Count Dooku by grabbing his hands to chop them off, but it's still pretty rare overall.
>Does the RPG make any provisions for standard-sized blades on a lightspear?
This is going to be pretty important.
>Juyo, by contrast
There should be a paragraph break here. I hope it doesn't turn out this way when I post the full writeup, which by the way is now 99% complete. It's probably going to be 6-7 posts. I don't know how the hell I even managed to pull this together. TBH I tend to abandon projects too easily. I never used to be that way, but that was back when everything hadn't been overrun by willfully retarded dipshits yet, so there still seemed to be something worth expending effort for. Hopefully this will be good enough for me to feel like I've accomplished something, if only a little.
Just those three. The others feel like they could be derived some other Asian language from their structure though.
Interesting. I never knew we had anyone who knew foreign languages on this board, especially given how few people post here. The Trekkies have more people than we do. Sad but true. At least they too know what it's like to get your franchise cucked up.
Well, they did have the benefit of winning the Hungry games Forgive me if /sw/ won it as well, I haven't been paying terribly close attention to that. Also, STD only just now got off the air so there's been a fresh batch of shit to bitch about. TLJ in contrast came out almost two months ago and the dust is beginning to settle.
I haven't been watching that. Boldly going to depths of faggotry no one has gone to before isn't the most appealing premise in the world. But more than that, there's just nothing distinctive about any of this SJW crap. It's all inferior rehashes of what came before because they have no creativity.
Being distinctive is probably the most important trait of any fictional object. Would Star Wars be what it is without lightsabers? I doubt it. There are plenty of space war settings, but none of the rest have the brand of mysticism or the philosophy of Star Wars, and all of that is exemplified by the lightsaber. It may be the most important aspect of Star Wars, not just because it was the first movie to have lightsabers, but because of what it represents. As Kreia says, a lightsaber - any weapon - only achieves worth in how it's wielded, in the struggle of one who holds it. It's not just about the fact that energy swords are cool. Given the introduction of lightsaber-resistant materials as early as The Empire Strikes Back, when Vader's armor is shown to be capable of offering at least partial lightsaber resistance, it's not about them being unstoppable uber-weapons, because people who don't have lightsabers are perfectly capable of winning against someone who has one. It's about what it stands for, and SJWism doesn't really stand for anything.
The home page says they have more active IPs than us, yet their PPH is usually as slow (or even slower) than ours.
We won it once in December.
OK people, I'm basically done with the lightspear stuff and it'll probably be posted later today. I'm just doing a little last-minute editing. I'm trying to make sure it's not just a rehash of spear tutorials you could find on numerous martial arts websites and YouTube videos.
Generally speaking, what strategy do you use to adapt traditional fighting methods to work with lightsabers, and/or what process do you use to evaluate lightsaber combat forms as thoroughly as you have, in the context of conventional styles?
I start by doing what I'd do for any other melee weapon, comparing the weapon to be evaluated to other weapons of its type. You can compare a halberd to a glaive and see that the halberd can do more damage and has more functions, but will also be less precise than a glaive because it's less balanced. A given weapon is optimized for certain types of attacks. Once you figure out those types, you can proceed to the second stage, the evaluation of the form, which I damn well hope is thorough after all the text I've written. In the case of fictional melee weapons without any technological advancements or magic powers that extend its range of basic abilities over and above what historical weapons can do, the forms are basically identical. A vibrosword, for instance, would just use a classical weapon form with no changes because it still has the same weight distribution and cutting edge as a regular sword. The major advancement of lightsabers isn't the fact that it has a laser blade, it's that it has an unlimited amount of cutting edges. If you somehow made a weapon out of physical mass with that same property and the weight balance of a sword, you could use lightsaber forms with it. The best-designed advanced melee weapons are the ones that allow you to mix multiple techniques which previously couldn't be used together because the design of the weapons you perform them with were too different.
>The major advancement of lightsabers isn't the fact that it has a laser blade, it's that it has an unlimited amount of cutting edges.
The complete weightlessness of the blade doesn't have as much of an impact?
Not as much as you'd think, since it still has the form factor of a sword. The weight distribution is all close to the blade axis, just the same as a regular sword, except that all the weight is in the hilt now. The only thing the blade's weightlessness does is make it easier to swing around, meaning you don't get tired as quickly, but you also have to be much more careful with it to avoid hitting friendlies. As long as you maintain the same form factor and weight distribution, subtracting weight isn't going to change much.
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You are a gentleman and a scholar, sir. I wish you well in your manual of arms-related endeavors, and I would hope to one day have the same level of knowledge that you do.
I wouldn't call myself a martial arts master or anything. Everything I write here is open to criticism, and there's about to be a lot of opportunity for that. I'm down to the last bit of editing, and I'd say the lightlance posting will be up in about an hour.
Actually, if you really wanted to reach for a difference, you can bring up the fact that with a regular two-handed sword, you're supposed to torque the hilt when handling it in order to make it more responsive, whereas with a lightsaber you get almost no torque, but the difference is honestly pretty insignificant. You'll get the same overall form with either case.
The guide is done. Wall of text incoming. Leave questions, comments, criticism, etc.
Fighting with a Lightsaber Lance For Fun and Profit
The lightsaber lance, or lightlance, also called the lightpike or lightspear, is a weapon for true patricians. All you need is to attach a lightsaber to a shaft of shielded or lightsaber-resistant material, and you too can be a real ass space homeboi. With this, the lightlance style should be developed enough for people to pick it up and start using it for whatever, whether it's tabletop roleplaying, dicing potatoes or writing fan fiction about a Jedi's whirlwind romance with an anime waifubot with huge mechanized milkers. You could maybe even fight in real life with it since it's got real martial arts mixed in, but you're strongly advised to actually take real martial arts before attempting this, and there are some moves in this style that you can't do, or at least are very difficult to do, with a currently existing weapon. If you want to learn real spear fighting, here are some schools you can study. Sojutsu and naginatajutsu are the Japanese spear disciplines. There isn't a spear-specific discipline indigenous to another country that I'm aware of, but many Chinese arts and HEMA include a goodly amount of spear work, with some of those styles focusing heavily on it. I'm told some Korean arts have it too, but my knowledge of that is lacking. This style draws heavily from Chinese spear techniques, but also pulls some ideas from Japanese weapon arts and from hand-to-hand fighting methods from around the world. There's no single best style of martial arts. It's all tailored to your body and your needs.
All martial arts will include at least basic staff training, much of which applies to spears, but they won't all place very much focus on it. This posting will include a detailed description of footwork, bladework and a kata. It's intended to be faster and more intense than the spear fighting we've seen so far in Star Wars. The style is made of a series of simple movements chained together in various ways, all of which involve your whole body moving synchronously. Note that even with the information here, there's still a lot of room for improving the style (more kata, for instance), but I'll leave that to the individual who wants to use it, because you'll be able to tell from the description if it fits your needs or not. You can use this style with standard lightlances (short blade/long shaft), long lightpikes (long blade/long shaft), lightsaber nagamakis (standard-sized blade with equal length shaft), double-ended standard lightlances, or even a long-handled saberstaff. You could also possibly have multiple blades on one or both ends, but you'll make the weapon more cumbersome and reduce its capability of fine thrusting work.
First, I'll cover the footwork because it's the most basic part. Unfortunately, video games and cartoons/CGI generally don't put much effort into depicting how important footwork is. To start out, we need to talk about the three rings of defense, which is a concept drawn from real martial arts. Whenever people are talking about MMA, you'll often hear them making reference to striking distance, trapping distance and grappling distance, which correspond well to the three rings of defense. With a polearm, you want to stay at the outermost ring, and you'll employ different methods to do this depending on your opposition. For normal steps to move forward or side-to-side, it's best to keep your weight distributed in your direction of movement with your other foot on its sole, so you don't have to drag it with you when you want to move. Some styles want you to have your weight on your back foot because they're more defensive, but this is a very kinetic style, and you want to press the attack as much as you can. Still, you'll need to step back at times, but no matter what you do, you want to keep your weight in the direction you're going. You'll need to pivot at some point, and this should be done by pivoting around the foot where your weight is concentrated, on the ball of the foot. Cross-steps are for when you need to reposition yourself quickly to dodge an incoming blow. Cross-steps and sidesteps are vital, because they let you stay at the outer ring of defense while not forcing you to redirect your momentum as much as a backstep would, and whenever possible, you should do a cross-step or sidestep instead of a backstep. The only time this is hard is in confined spaces or against multiple opponents. In these situations, you should always attempt to isolate a few enemies at a time. There's no guaranteed tactic against multiple opponents, but your range will give you a better chance than most. With that said, it's time to talk bladework.
Our bladework will be based on Shien. Shien bladework utilizes a system where the range of angles between the blade and the wielder's forearm is much smaller than in other styles. In most other styles, particularly Djem So, the blade can travel to all sorts of angles, but Shien doesn't do this. It keeps the angle fairly close to perpendicular at most times. In reverse grip Shien, this is even more noticeable because it stays close to being parallel instead, usually within 30 degrees. This is evident if you watch the path of Galen Marek's lightsaber. You'll notice that because of the way he holds it, its angle always remains fairly close to his arm. This is the reason Shien is the bladework of choice to be adapted to a spear form. Because of how a spear is held and its general focus on thrusting, your forearms are necessarily going to be at a close angle to the spear shaft while holding it, and this constraint is going to dictate how it can be used. Essentially it forces all bladework to be body work and keeps you focused on your target. Kazdan Paratus doesn't hold to this constraint, and thus it's doubtful that he's practicing Shien. He uses all sorts of wild slashes which don't fit with Shien, so if he knows Shien, it's in addition to another style. There is a key to getting spear Shien right, and it's the same as the answer to the question raised in >>10314 and >>10315 about the major differences between real spear fighting and this. We're going to talk about that now, because it's arguably the most important part of the style. That part is the draw cut.
Draw cuts are from Japanese swordsmanship. You rarely see draw cuts in spear styles because they're built on the spearhead's point, not its edge. Draw cuts can be done with Japanese spears, but due to a lightsaber's infinite edges they're easier to do with a lightlance, and thus it's worth spending significant effort developing them, which no real-world spear arts do. This is the biggest change from real spear arts, and it can be a very effective way of punishing reckless enemies. In Shien, nearly every cut is a draw cut, and this is because of the restriction on the angle your blade can be at. With lightlances, thrusting is more prominent, but draw cuts are more important here than with normal spears.
In this style, you have three main attacks: thrusts, slashes, and draw cuts, each at a small range of different angles. A fourth attack, the crosscut, is performed by slashing while sidestepping or cross-stepping. The powerful draw cuts enabled by the lightsaber blade can be done at the end of every technique you perform, except those where you attack directly with the shaft. Draw cuts are very similar to crosscuts, almost being merely a variation of crosscuts, except that they're directed backwards at an angle, which would only be effective with a spearhead designed for it, and you can't get better than a lightsaber blade for that. This is a manifestation of both the Shien bladework and Juyo principles, because it can effectively make every attack into two attacks. When blocking blasters, you'll be making crosscut/draw cut motions and torquing the spear up, down and side to side. When you pivot, you don't want to be spinning everywhere like a saberstaff user would, and your attacks won't be the bashing strikes of Djem So. They're light, measured strokes that easily lead into another attack.
We now need to outline our defense, to the extent that this style even has dedicated defense. Parrying with the spear is done by moving the spear point in a circle to push incoming attacks away. A two-thirds grip is better for dealing with ranged enemies since it offers you more of a chance to angle the blade to block, while the standard grip with one hand in the center and the other near the haft will give you more range against melee fighters. The spear should be held against your body whenever it's not being thrust to give you better control over it, because again, all your bladework is body work. When you need to pivot, holding your spear against your body will lower your moment of inertia, letting your angular momentum rotate you faster, and it allows you an extra point of contact to control it with. Since less focus is placed on pivoting in general, the style's overall movement is very efficient. Your defense against multiple opponents will incorporate more slashing than against only one, and you need to be at an angle to them where you can line them up as closely as possible.
Finally, we'll give an example by talking about a kata. In the Jedi system of lightsaber combat, attacks are described as being directed to any one of six zones, so I'll be using that nomenclature here. If you've taken real martial arts, you know how elaborate and long kata can be. The kata in Jedi Academy are more like combos, which are over in a few seconds, whereas real kata can have dozens of moves and take a minute or two to perform, because they're meant to be training tools, not something you use in a fight. That said, let's begin our kata. The first part will be analogous to a JA kata. We start by thrusting while we step forward and keep our weight in the direction of our thrust, parry to bat away an incoming strike (and hit anyone unfortunate enough to be caught in the parry's path), and transition that into a downward slash to Zone 1. Then we thrust again, parry again and use it to transition into a crosscut to Zone 2. After the crosscut, perform a draw cut across Zone 3 while doing a back or sidestep, and finish off with another thrust.
The sequence is as follows:
Straight thrust > Parry > Zone 1 slash > Straight thrust > Parry > Zone 2 crosscut > Zone 3 draw cut > Straight thrust
This would be considered a basic but viable combo in a real spear discipline, aside from the draw cut, which would probably be replaced with a parry. Of course, in the Star Wars setting, you can also mix Force powers into this, but Force powers aren't explicitly a part of most of the lightsaber forms. Still, you probably won't actually be using a combo like this blow-for-blow. You'll mix and match different attacks for the best effect, but thrusts will almost always be your starting point. This sequence was designed to emphasize that, and it serves as a foundation to build additional skills on. Per the Wikipedia article on kata, traditional kata in karate include at least 20 moves, and in judo they have at least 15. This has only 8 so far, so let's add a series of moves to get it to a total of 18. What we're adding here is analogous to the Flurry series of feats in Knights of the Old Republic.
Starting from the end of the previous sequence:
Parry > Zone 2 draw cut > Straight thrust > Parry > Zone 3 draw cut > Thrust angled down and to the side > Zone 5 draw cut > Straight thrust > Parry > Zone 2 slash
This one-two-three combo of thrust > parry > slash/crosscut/draw cut can be repeated at many angles as often as the situation allows. The first part of the kata has two thrust-parry-technique combos, but the second combo has a draw cut after the end of it while the first one doesn't. This is to show you what options you have. In a real martial arts style, just because a kata has few moves doesn't mean it's a weak training tool, or a tool only for beginners. Some of the beginning kata are trained with by the most advanced masters of the style. This is just to provide a baseline for others to work with, because this is meant to be creative. If you decided to have a character use this style in a story you're writing, you could incorporate all sorts of acrobatics like somersaults, rolls and Force jumps. This isn't how real martial artists would fight with a spear, but this is a story about space samurai, so let loose.
That was a lot of words. I put my nose to the grindstone for this, so I hope it helps somebody. Now all it needs is a name and people willing to develop it even more by putting it to use.
I'll try to sum this lightlance style up into bullet points, for those who don't want to read all of that.
>Heavily offensive, forward-focused, motion-economizing style built on a Shien/Juyo mixture which plays to the strengths of polearms
>Spear shaft maintains a near-constant angle to the wielder's forearms and is held in close contact with the body for greater control
>Three major types of attacks: thrusts, slashes, and draw cuts
>Draw cuts are the core of the style because they let you attack more often with less movement and counter attempts to close the distance
>Footwork relies on your weight being on the front foot to synchronize with attacks and to apply pressure to the enemy
>Capable of blaster deflection with a long-bladed weapon, although won't do as well at it as a normal lightsaber with a defense-focused style
What if, as an alternative to blocking blasters, the style was built with force speed in mind just like Niman is built with telekinesis in mind
>the best defense is not be there
You can use Force speed with any style and any weapon. The best defense is always to not be in a position where you have to block enemy shots, or at least to be in a position where you can limit the number of shots being fired at you.
>there will never be another Jedi Knight game with fully customizable lightsaber styles and lightsabers including curved hilts, lances, and tonfas
>instead we're going to get nothing but Lootboxfront and mobileshit until the end of time
This is the worst timeline.
Any chance of indie devs picking up the slack?
Maybe if the original Jedi Knight team got back together, they could make a similar game under a new IP. I don't know of any other devs who could do it.
Anyone thought about a saber with an angled hilt, as opposed to a curved one? I don't think I've ever seen one of those. It might be a bit easier to use for someone who isn't going to focus on Makashi.
Well, if you look at Dooku's hilt it's not so much curved as it is angled in two places.
>Notable users: Plo Koon
May I ask from where you got this? Browsing the Legends wiki and it says Plo Koon preferred to employ Shien while dueling.
I issued a correction to this in >>10244. Plo Koon didn't prefer Shii-Cho. I got him and Kit Fisto mixed up.
Also, the front page of the site has labeled this a quality thread.
Ah, my mistake. Been a while since I read through this thread all the way.
Have you more insights into saber combat? Do multiple sabers have any sort of place in serious dueling, besides saber throws and the aforementioned +3 Crystals of Muh Dick? You bring up a good point about having no leverage, but there could still be some potential use with the Soresu form, against large numbers of saberless opponents. (I don't think) deflecting blaster bolts requires any kind of leverage, just that the blade be in the bolt's path, and mastering deflection relies more on letting the Force guide your hand movements to where the bolt is about to be than physical dexterity. Also, when you're rushing in to gut the poor fools that came at you with blaster rifles, I don't believe leverage will be as much of an issue either. Saber blades have been shown to cut through flesh and most materials without resistance, with the exception of really thick slabs of metal and saber-resistant materials.
>Have you more insights into saber combat?
I wrote all the stuff about lightlances, but there's still a lot more room for others to contribute to lightsaber knowledge. I know a good bit about swords and spears, but I'd love it if somebody would write one about lighttonfas, since I don't know dick about tonfas. Also I wish there were more Force user flags. We need flags for the Jal Shey, Zeison Sha, etc. To my knowledge, there sadly isn't a Force-using order that focuses specifically on the lance. The Knights of Zakuul use it the most, but they also use other weapons.
>Do multiple sabers have any sort of place in serious dueling, besides saber throws and the aforementioned +3 Crystals of Muh Dick?
There seem to be few dedicated dual blade users among the elite tier of duelists. Asajj Ventress did okay with them, especially for someone who's not officially a Sith, but she never quite one-upped Anakin or Obi-Wan. Ahsoka does well enough, which is mostly on her because Anakin doesn't specialize in Jar'Kai, but she still semi-often ends up needing to be saved by various people and/or things including fellow Jedi, clones, and time portals. Of course, you can optionally make Jaden Korr use dual sabers, but back when I played a ton of Jedi Academy, they were my least favorite style, and this is echoed by much of the higher-ranked JA community. Then there's the second Starkiller, who probably does the best of all the dual wielding specialists.
On the other side, there's the aforementioned Komari Vosa, who used dual sabers (which would later be given to Ventress) and was one of the few Force users who actually lost a one-on-one fight to a blaster using non-Force sensitive, though this may have been due to the fact that she was Count Dooku's former apprentice and was therefore trained primarily in Makashi, which does poorly against blasters. Boc from Jedi Knight gets owned by Kyle Katarn, but Kyle Katarn owning people isn't news. Serra Keto (from the Episode III videogame) gets rekt by Anakin during the Jedi Temple attack. Then there are the comic book characters that I'm not very familiar with.
>You bring up a good point about having no leverage, but there could still be some potential use with the Soresu form, against large numbers of saberless opponents.
Dual sabers are definitely good against large numbers of blaster users, but this seems to be just about the only thing they're good for. Overall they just don't tend to hold up well against single saber masters or exotic weapon specialists.
>you could probably make some of these with the toy set
>something something Komari Vosa
On the other hand, Coleman Trebor is said to have been an expert in the “Soresu” style, which was apparently developed *specifically* to counter blasters, and also got pwned by Jango all the same. It’s likely that the only reason Jango didn’t ultimately kill Mace Windu as well was massive head trauma from having his skull repeatedly bounced off the ground by the quadrupedal equivalent of a Ford F-350.
For what purpose?
Mace Windu was one of the strongest Jedi in the Order. He wasn't going to be brought down by Jango. But the example of Coleman Trebor is another reason I think Shien is better than Soresu. You can actually be offensive to some extent with Shien, but Trebor just stood there and tried to deflect. Standing around trying to swat shots back might work against battle droids, but not against hardass mercs. But that could also be chalked up to the fact that the Jedi of that era had never faced real opponents before.
“Jango Fett bristles with weapons. An instinctive killer: the deadliest man in the galaxy. Jango can kill me in less than a second. I know it.”
But did they form into armies and fleets? Did they gather in great number to torch planets by the score killing billions?
If not then it was just the occasional jedi-hissyfit caused by incompetent masters or emo students.
he got a crit, nothing even the best style could do against it
As much as I like seeing lightsabers in tinkering scenes like this, I think the film's better off without it; a lot of the tension in Jabba's sail barge comes from not knowing exactly what was going to happen. Revealing the new saber when it popped out of R2 like that was a much better reveal. But it's a nice little tidbit if you already know what's going to happen, so putting it on as a DVD extra makes sense.
He does that pretty consistently.
Mace can also kill Jango in less than a second. But Obi-Wan used Soresu and did a lot better against Jango. However, Obi-Wan had fought a Sith Lord before, which is much more dangerous than anything any Jedi at the time had fought up to that point, and he's one of the main characters, so he's probably just better at it than Coleman Trebor.
The 7-form system was outdated anyway and probably should have been replaced even if the Jedi weren't almost totally wiped out and required to build a new system due to the loss of prior knowledge. I'd probably adopt a system based almost entirely on Form V. Form I and III just aren't effective enough, Form II would be an archaic curiosity only studied by a few, Form IV is impractical and doesn't economize movement, and Form VI is barely even a form because Force powers can be used with any form. Form VII would be the advanced form taught to lightsaber specialists, but Shien and Djem So are more than enough for all but the most difficult situations.
Obi-Wan and Jango were more evenly matched in their fight. Jango still had is jetpack, for one, and wasn't particularly interested in killing Obi-Wan, just taking him out of the picture long enough to get away. Add to that Obi-Wan using the passive Soresu form, and also not wanting to kill Jango because he wanted information from him, and you can't compare Kenobi and Fett's fight to Fett's and Windu's, because in the former neither is trying especially hard to kill the other.
This is filled with too many instances of "probably." I'd definitely prefer an order that heavily emphasizes Form V over the others. I just haven't spent enough time thinking about all the details of a revamped lightsaber training program to be able to say what else it might involve. There's no one-size-fits-all solution, and everyone's personal style of lightsaber combat will be slightly different and may involve saber variants or mixing lightsaber combat with gunfighting, so you still may need to keep some remnants of the other styles in place.
For example, the Form V emphasis scheme might work well for most humans and humanoids, but some adjustments would have to be made for the many alien species who have completely different physiologies, or for smaller combatants for whom Form V isn't the best option.
Any Jedi could kill someone who’d just suffered a concussion. It’s worth noting however that the Mace/Jango fight scene was apparently supposed to have gone on for longer than it ultimately did in the theatrical cut of the film, with Jango actually blocking Mace’s lightsaber with his wrist armor at points, interestingly enough.
This is also true. I'd still be interested to see what a Soresu user with dual blades could do against someone like Jango at peak fighting condition though. Wookieepedia says Coleman Trebor beat Qui-Gon in a sparring match. Maybe this had something to do with Obi-Wan's decision to convert to Form III. Also, Barriss Offee is listed as a major Form III practitioner, and she used Ventress's dual sabers against Ahsoka successfully during the final arc of TCW. Ahsoka should have had some Soresu training because Anakin was trained by Obi-Wan, but she was mostly using standard Jar'Kai mixed with Form V.
I've thought about how to remedy Soresu's flaws and what I first came up with is the idea that Form I and Form III go pretty well together because Form III doesn't attack much and Form I's attacks are stand-alone and cautious. Theoretically every Jedi should have spent some time learning Form I, but we don't always see that come out in Form III practitioners. But then I realized that a combination of Form I and Form III would end up as something very close to standard Shien. Having thought about Shien some more, I think the reason they say Shien fails in duels is because of the locked perpendicular-ish orientation of the blade, whereas most of the time in a duel you want to rely on the point of the sword. However, as I've opined earlier (and as Galen Marek has shown) it's possible to create a much more aggressive variation of the style that does better in duels. But to me, a blade-locked style is less efficient without a spear.
Now that is interesting. Why would they cut that out? It would have been fun to see.
To expound on this lightsaber program a bit, I can't think of which form would be best for tonfas, but I know it wouldn't be a Form V variant. Neither Shien nor Djem So offer the type of bladework needed for fist weapons. You might be able to pull pieces from Form I and III in a way that they don't add up to Shien, because the whole point of a tonfa is to spin it at different angles. Tonfas would likely be another weapon-specific form, but I don't have the knowledge to create that one. Someone who knows about tonfas is going to have to jump in because my training with them is nonexistent. But this is another example of an instance in which we can't just rely on Form V for everything. Granted I'm not really heavily in favor of tonfas myself, but I'm sure someone will be. They're less retarded than a helicopter lightsaber at any rate.
Also, I'm not sure if people here have heard that there are at least two hidden lightsaber forms in Jedi Outcast and one more in Jedi Academy. There's a FAQ on GameFAQs that tells you the console commands to unlock the two JO forms. I tried them, but I didn't find them to my liking because they were too slow and the existing red style had better movements more likely to land a hit. The hidden form in JA is just the double-bladed lightsaber animations with one of the ends deactivated, and there are videos on YouTube that show you how to unlock it, but it's more of a glitch than an actual style. It still completely changes how the style plays though. It ends up being very much like Shien, so naturally I thought it was awesome and I wish it was available through standard means.
Just to clarify, by tonfa you mean what people seem to have taken to calling guard shoto, yes? Looking at it I'm not convinced there's all that practical an application for swordplay, as the blade tends to point away from your opponent and getting proper leverage would be nearly impossible. If they were used as actual tonfas and the hilt over the forearm was the weapon they might have some use, but at that point you may as well get rid of the blades. They're no longer a central part of the fighting style and are just as likely to cut your own legs off as they are to harm your opponent. If you want to get your weeb on just use tonfas made from phrik or a similar material, maybe electrified if you want it to be a little more "sci-fi."
Yeah, the guard shoto. You can point tonfas any way you like just by twirling them with the grip, but Maris Brood has the grip right near the pommel, meaning hers would tend towards having the saber point backwards. Putting the grip a bit more to the center can fix this, and you can maintain the location of the saber blade by adding a couple inches to the hilt. If you point the blade forward it becomes something like a Halo energy sword, while if you point it away it's similar in concept to fighting with a reverse grip on an ordinary blade, but the shape of the blade makes it differ quite a bit. You could do slashing attacks just by rotating the blade, which makes it pretty efficient. Combine that with fist weapon principles and some reverse grip techniques and you could have a very interesting fighting style, in the same way that ordinary lightsabers let you combine techniques from several real-world sword disciplines because of their infinite cutting edges. Having two of them would somewhat compensate for its blaster deflection weakness, but it still won't be as good at blocking them as a regular saber. It's like the extended-blade lightspear in that way.
The one issue I see is with defending. Using that perpendicular grip means that whenever you're attempting to parry another blade, the force of the blow is applying a bunch of torque to the blade, which is only counteracted by the strength of the user's grip at the point of rotation. You've basically turned the whole saber into one big lever arm whenever you're deflecting blows. The opportunity to quickly switch your grip to attack from different angles is nice, though.
The guard shoto appears to give you both inherently lacking defense and more attack options than most other saber variants, meaning anyone who uses it needs to be absurdly aggressive. With that and the lacking blaster deflection in mind, we can rule out Soresu for the basis for a tonfa style. Shii-Cho and arguably even Juyo are too disconnected for it as well. There are times when the choice of a different weapon can enhance a certain style and make up for some of its weaknesses, but this isn't going to be one of them. Saberstaffs are a good example of that because you can use them with Soresu for added blaster deflection and some much needed offensive power. In fact, that may be the best way to fix Soresu. Obviously it can also be used with more offensive styles as Maul does. Using a lance with Shien may be another example. But I can't think of a single way tonfas could work with most of the 7 Jedi styles.
Maris Brood's master was Shaak Ti, who knew all 7 forms to some extent but primarily used Makashi and Ataru, so that's what Maris Brood was probably taught. Of course there are exceptions to this, like Count Dooku being Qui-Gon's master but Qui-Gon specializing in a different style, and the same with Obi-Wan and Anakin. When the tonfa is being used as a claw it'd be with a Makashi-like technique, but due to the odd construction of the hilt you'd have inferior control to a regular saber and especially a curved hilt saber. A full-fledged lightclaw would at least give good control because it can be secured more tightly to your hand. When the tonfa is in its normal position, it'd be used with some kludged-together reverse grip style. Even though Shien is the only style the canonical material says uses reverse grip, I don't think it's impossible in principle to use reverse grip with another style, and the bladework and philosophy of a guard shoto is vastly different from Shien. Even then, the reverse grip doesn't matter nearly as much since it's generally more defensive, and the blade position makes it harder to defend with a guard shoto. When you're twirling the guard shoto around, it probably seems like you'd be better off with a saberstaff, or even the damn sabercopter. I'm not sure what old Jedi style that falls under.
In the end, a guard shoto style looks to be made up of several other styles mutated until they're hardly recognizable and considerably inferior to the originals, and then fused together. The only real advantage it has is that it can perform attacks very quickly. If anyone wants to try to figure out how best to utilize this property, be my guest.
>there's no 8-Bit Theater takeoff where some Jedi who's not all there in the head tries to make lightsaber-chucks
Also known as the "No one will leave this fight alive including the wielder and any unfortunate bystandards"-saber.
Also wasn't there a lightclub at one point?
Its basically just a really big lightsaber for larger species with bulky builds and hands.
So just a dual-phase lightsaber with a big hilt? "club" implies relying on blunt force trauma instead of the saber's perfect cutting blade. The closest thing to a real club would be those electro-staves that Grievous's Magnaguards use.
Not just a big hilt the blade was thick too. Presumably like how a n ogre might smash someone to paste with a huge cudgel, a lightclub would allow a giant alien to "smash" his opponent, meaning he would just incinerate most of their body with a single swipe.
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Be careful what you wish for.
>that disgusting camel toe
Fuck I always thought he wore green pants.
Plot twist: Gorc was an old gamorrean lady all along.
Weird. But not half as weird as the thought of Gorc being an old Gamorrean lady. That's just horrifying.
I sometimes wonder why it took them until the prequel era to codify lightsaber styles. But anyway, who does everyone think the greatest lightsaber duelist is in terms of pure demonstrated martial arts skill, discounting Force power? You have some people who are supposed to have mastered all the forms, like Yoda and Palpatine, but that's mostly an ability we're told about rather than shown, and we should only use things we've actually seen to base this on. Try to leave out videogame characters unless you can find evidence of their skills in non-videogame media, because videogames are based on player skill and not the character's inherent skill. If you can't decide on a single greatest, make a top 3 or 5 or something.
Maybe this should be "lightsaber fighter." Given the wide variety of military forces in Star Wars, it'd be unfair to only count battles between people with lightsabers. You could certainly include duelist as a subcategory though, along with quite a few other potential subcategories.
Stereotypical as it may seem I'd have to say Mace Windu. Form VII, particularly Vaapad as it requires one to master both aggression and restraint, is a difficult form to learn. Further, he's the only character we've seen to hold his own against the undoubtedly powerful Palpatine It might be argued that Palpatine was intentionally holding back to draw out the conflict and force Anakin into a position to betray Windu, but we can only speculate on whether or not this is true, and to what degree it's true. Sheev had a clear mastery of the Force, and apparent skill with a lightsaber, cutting down three High Council members and another Master within the space of a few seconds. But Windu not only repelled his attack but went on the offensive, actually managing to disarm Sidious But not as hard as Anakin disarms him, and was seemingly on the verge of defeating him.
Funny how Pic's species was never stated anywhere until Dark Forces where they called him a monkey-lizard, despite the fact that he shares no visible traits with a kowakian monkey-lizard and actually looks more like a short mutated gamorrean which I think was the original intent. Unless of course he was a monkey-lizard spliced with gamorrean DNA. But still would've been neat to know that gamorreans had a smaller sub-race which were effectively goblins to compliment their orc theme.
*Dark Forces Saga
Mace did better than Yoda, at least. I'd think most of the best lightsaber wielders would tend to be from the movies rather than the EU, or at least clustered around the movie era, because the movies are the centerpiece of the franchise. Jedi Battlemasters would be good candidates from the EU, but some of them are there mostly for their Force powers. Kyle Katarn is probably the only exception to the "no vidya" rule because they put him in novels and comics too, and he eventually became the Battlemaster of the New Jedi Order. The Sith don't really have Battlemasters, but it always seems like the apprentices focus much more on the saber than the masters do. Other Force-using orders can mostly be disregarded because many of them don't even use lightsabers.
Wizards of the Coast did a series of web articles where they stated up all the characters from the Dark Forces games and expanded their backstories. Gorc and Pic were the result of Sith alchemy experiments.
Those articles were actually pretty good. A prime example of how the better EU authors were fond of linking all the seemingly disconnected stories into one coherent narrative.
>Sheev had a clear mastery of the Force, and apparent skill with a lightsaber, cutting down three High Council members
Honestly i can't take that scene seriously. It was one of most awful scenes of the all movies. Mace and the 3 stooges. Palpatine wasn't even that fast. They just stood there and besides Sasee Ti, who was actually stabbed, the others only had cuts who shouldn't be fatal. Master Fisting was the worst offender, a wound and "awwwwbloo bleargh i'm dead".
Please don't bring that scene to memory again please. The growl, Palpatine trying spinning, which is a good trick, the slowpoke council members, the one cut bleargh I'm dead effect…
Wasn't that scene meant to happen twice as fast as it really did, but couldn't be shown faster due to filming constraints? As I understand it Sheev was supposed to be like a red blur, cutting down the backdrop characters before you really knew what happened.
>Honestly i can't take that scene seriously. It was one of most awful scenes of the all movies.
its treason then
I didn't say they weren't good (they were really good), but Pic definitely looked more Gamorrean, and Gorc was just a Gamorrean jacked up on sith alchemy steroids. All I'm saying is it would've been nice if Pic was a sub-race of smaller and dumber gamorreans whose experiments involved increasing his intellect to the max. It would've been fun to have gamorrean goblins for my SW game nights.
WE WUZ JE'DAIIS N SHIT?
I agree that the idea was that, but the execution was awful. If they did something in the lines of the novel, with Palpatine at least tricking them into lower their guard for a sec and actually landing killing blows. They already had show decapitations, maiming, and later immolation. What would be a couple of fast decapitations (not even going to the novel where Palpatine kills Sasee Tin with a lightsaber in the middle of head)
And correction: Frank stabs Agen Kolar, not Tin.
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For what it's worth I tried watching the scene at twice the playback and it seems closer to what Lucas intended.
Even at higher speed. Palpatine roars, spins, lands, a makes a stabing motion that lasts forever and the Jedi… stands there. They are supposed to be precogs with split second reflexes. I don't know… they should had done something like Palpatine blinking, one moment he's there and them he is over them already.
It's a good trick :^)
Vader taking an elevator could have been cut but that part in the cave would have made some good context.
has there ever been fan edits to keep the original cut vibe but add in scenes like that. Shit like actually having a toshies station would have been nice.
>Shit’s starting to make sense…
when the first order is entirely white it's only NOW that you get that?
You mean they changed that from the cast of browns and whites they had in TFA?
So is there any lightsaber variation that hasn't been done yet?
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You haven't even done any of these yet, anon.
We could always go back to discussing dedicated Jedi hunters, as well as how Jedi could deal with them.
I think there should just be one category for all those clusterfuck lightsabers. I doubt you could make anything like a functional style for any of them. The more blades a given saber has, the less freedom of movement it offers. This is enough of a problem with basic saberstaffs, but once your saber has 17 blades jutting out at all different angles, your best option is to just throw it, because any attempt to use it as a melee weapon is just as likely to kill you as it is your enemy, or more. It's swordchucks-tier. The only exception to this would be a many-tipped lightlance, but even most of the techniques I came up with for it are rendered useless by the extra blades, and eventually the weight distribution starts to suffer as well.
As for Jedi hunters, considering that Jango Fett and Cad Bane are the only ones who scored real victories, and both of them against relatively ill-prepared Force users (one against someone trained in the single worst lightsaber style for fighting blasters, the other just an apprentice), we might do better to talk about droids. Or we could always speculate about what a fully realized Dark Trooper program would have been like, but that deserves its own thread.
>The more blades a given saber has, the less freedom of movement it offers.
>Everyone is focusing on the many-bladed lightlightsabersabers and not my autistic lightbow
Feels bad, man
Not sure. Maybe the original pacing of the scene triggered George’s autism somehow. The shooting script for the Kamino fight scene also notes that Jango “deflects” Obi-Wan’s lightsaber
…with his armor, for which there appears to be some photographic evidence from one of the behind-the-scenes books. Interestingly, Mandalorian armour being parently lightsaber-resistant seems to be a pretty consistent theme in pre-production, with some early storyboards for Return of the Jedi even showing Boba’s armour stopping Luke’s lightsaber (after it slices through his jetpack).
Jango took out at least eight battle-ready Jedi knights on Galidraan, as well as a Jedi Master specializing in the single best style for fighting blasters on Geonosis. The fact that he’s meant to be a Jedi-killing machine is laid out pretty clearly
Isn't Boba's armor just durasteel according to the EU though? And he doesn't get beskar'gam until much later?
You know what, I'll just change to the Revanchist symbol. I've tried other symbols and seen others in other threads, and I think I like this one the best.
You have to wonder how the Mandalorians lost the Mandalorian War if they were such badasses. Maybe they just weren't all Fett-tier fighters, or maybe if Jango was in charge of that group of Mandalorians, they would have done better, but you have to wonder about how every time a Fett is set up to fight a powerful Jedi, some weird coincidence happens to make the Fett lose. Jango got trampled by a random monster and Boba was thwarted by Han activating his jetpack completely by accident. I guess there's no substitute for having the will of the Force on your side.
>Jango took out at least eight battle-ready Jedi knights on Galidraan, as well as a Jedi Master specializing in the single best style for fighting blasters on Geonosis.
Having thought about this some more, Coleman Trebor might have won against Jango, but he was trying to fight Dooku and Jango at the same time. Between them, they have all three rings of defense covered. Coleman could have closed in on Jango and gotten close enough that he couldn't properly aim his blasters, which is basically what Mace did to win, but if Coleman had done that, Dooku would have cut him down, as evidenced by Dooku's Makashi beating Obi-Wan's Soresu both times in the movies, and Obi-Wan is said to be the best Soresu practitioner in the Order, so if he couldn't beat Dooku with it, Coleman definitely couldn't. He needed proper backup, if not from other Jedi then from clone troopers, and even then he probably would have lost to Dooku. His attempt was a foolhardy and un-Soresu-like act.
That’s true, but I’m not talking about the EU, but this weird thing where the filmmakers (including possibly George Lucas himself) seem to have a clear idea that Mandalorian armor is lightsaber-resistant to some degree, but this never seems to quite make it into the final cut of the films.
>lol Mandalorian Wars
If I recall my EU history, it was a combination of Revan being just *that* good in his newfound role as Space Rommel combined with the fact that the Mandalorians were attempting to take on more or less the entire galaxy for whatever reason, so even if the average Mando warrior could regularly take on ten Republic soldiers and win (I remember reading that somewhere years ago before the dark times…before the Disney purchase) there were still trillions more to replace them. The fact that they got as far as they did was I think partially explained in the old KotOR comics as being the result of disunity and factiousness in the Republic, which prevented large-scale mobilization against the invasion in its early days and also served as a recruiting tool for the Mandalorian armies, since, as ever, huge numbers of people outside the Core had reasons to resent/hate the Coruscant-based government.
>lol will of the Force
Otherwise known as “plot armor,” but there’s something even greater at work in the galaxy: popularity power. ;-)
*Was* Trevor trying to guard against Dooku? Seems to me Dooku was just passively standing there, while Trebor had all his attention focused on Jango (whom it really doesn’t make sense to dispute as an effective fighter against Force-users, because that’s kind of the whole narrative point for his being the template of the Jedi-killing Clone Army in the first place). On another note, though, this kind of touches on why I’ve never liked the idea of lightsaber “forms” as introduced in the Prequels, or at least how that idea was implemented, because discussion of it always seems to devolve into this weird rock-paper-scissors game of “Form X totally beats Form Y, which always beats Form Z.”
>so even if the average Mando warrior could regularly take on ten Republic soldiers and win (I remember reading that somewhere years ago before the dark times…before the Disney purchase) there were still trillions more to replace them.
Canderous talks about how they were outnumbered and outgunned in KotOR, but they still did quite a bit of damage.
>Seems to me Dooku was just passively standing there, while Trebor had all his attention focused on Jango
The fact that Dooku was even there made him a factor in the fight by default. It takes a fraction of a second to ignite a lightsaber and go from "just standing there" to "whooping some ass." Any attempt to get close to Jango would have had to go through Dooku.
Maybe it’s my unwillingness to sit through every episode of CG Wars, but I don’t recall that Dooku ever been shown to take “a fraction of a second to go from ‘just standing there’ to ‘whooping some ass’” on another Jedi without prior warning. It just doesn’t seem to be in accordance with his character.
That happens several times in CG Wars. All the episodes aren't great, but there's definitely some good stuff in it, so you should watch it.
He just straight up attacks people? And here I thought Anakin and Grievous underwent dramatic changes…
I think aren't used more often because of the fact everyone in the universe is "use too" having a light "light shooting" energy gun with no recoil. It would be yet another hurtle someone would have to deal with, as appose to in RL, you have to deal with weapon weight, recoil and ammo no matter which firearm you use. Might seem to "primitive" for most users. Also, some of them are big as fuck.
Dooku basically becomes an emotionless puppet for Sidious unlike his counterpart in the EU who actually cared about the galaxy and knew that the Republic and Jedi had become corrupt with political power. In CW he was willing to kill and manipulate the CIS in anyway he saw fit in order to further his precious Master's goal, and he even tried to kill Ventress in a blind rage soon after the Emperor ordered him to kill her.
Come to think of it, Jango killing all those Jedi on Galidraan may not be as impressive as it sounds, considering that Niman was the standard form of the Order at the time and thus it's likely that most of the Jedi force there was using it. As mentioned earlier, every Niman practitioner at Geonosis died, and none of them fought anyone with a lightsaber there, just battle droids.
It's been a while since this post, but I actually just wanted to say that it was the primary inspiration for the focus on draw cuts with a lightlance. It sounded like a crosscut at first, but when I thought about it through the lens of lightsabers, I realized that you could accomplish this goal by just pulling the lance backwards. As it happens, that's a real technique, just not one you usually see with spears.
Speaking of Dark Troopers and other cybernetic/droid Jedi hunters, I've been wondering if a lightlance would be any good against them. It seems more reasonable to find vulnerable points in saber-resistant armor with a spear.
Unlikely. You wouldn’t send a bunch of diplomats and librarians to confront a heavily-armed mercenary army. The appeal to the example of battle droids on Geomosis is off-base as well, considering that all of Jango’s kills at Galidraan seem to have taken place in melee. Really, you should stop trying to minimize the incident, since the whole point of it in the first place is to show that Jango is an extraordinarily lethal fighter whom even Palpatine and Dooku are impressed by. Trying to rationalize that away just makes you look kind of petty.
>You wouldn’t send a bunch of diplomats and librarians to confront a heavily-armed mercenary army.
The Jedi did dumb shit all the time, like that one time they sent a bunch of diplomats and librarians to confront an army of battle droids. I'm just trying to consider all the angles here for the sake of completeness. Anybody who can pull off a solid win against any Force user without using the Force themselves is inarguably pretty damn impressive. Jedi hunters are one of the most interesting aspects of Star Wars because the whole setting is based on the Force. In almost any fictional setting that has any kind of magic or superpowers, I'm always drawn to the anti-mage archetype. Showing that the Jedi were seriously out of touch with the galaxy and in dire need of a Council with a basic grasp of military strategy doesn't diminish the accomplishments of those who take advantage of their lack of knowledge to defeat them. It just shows how superpowers are no substitute for more mundane talents.
On another level, this sort of thing allows you to come to a deeper understanding of storytelling, and of the philosophical aspects of the Force, if you're into that sort of thing. You can use this understanding for many things both in terms of writing in general and in the Star Wars universe specifically. In some ways, studying Jedi hunters is like checking the Force for weak spots. If you're of a Kreia-like mindset, you could use that to devise methods of attacking and destroying the Force, but that's not all you can do. You could also use the knowledge to bend the Force to your will. Writing characters around that knowledge is an intriguing exercise. Plus, it's not like anything you come up with this way could possibly be worse than Disney's shit.
>that one time they sent a bunch of diplomats and librarians to confront an army of battle droids.
That was, I believe, an unprecedented (at least within living memory) crisis situation, apparently severe enough to justify grabbing everyone old enough to swing a lightsaber and frog-march them aboard the nearest Consular-class cruiser. Additionally, they had extensive infantry, armor and air support en-route, so it wasn’t as if they were attempting to fight a conventional army with just a few hundred Jedi armed only with melee weapons.
>the whole setting is based on the Force
The Force is certainly a central element of SW, but I think inflating it to the point of being the whole of the setting creates a kind of narrative tunnel vision which weakens the story, with all of those interesting soldiers, smugglers, scavengers, scoundrels, aliens and other characters that fleshed out the universe inevitably ending up playing second banana to the Jedi or Sith (or else having to *become* Jedi/Sith themselves to stay relevant).
>doesn't diminish the accomplishments of those who take advantage of their lack of knowledge to defeat them
That seems like damning with faint praise, as if a Jedi/Sith-killer stands no chance without a “lack of knowledge” on the part of his adversaries.
>studying Jedi hunters is like checking the Force for weak spots.
I’m of the opinion that George Lucas never intended Force-users to be as broken as some authors write them. There are numerous moments across all six of his films that seem to indicate as much.
>That seems like damning with faint praise, as if a Jedi/Sith-killer stands no chance without a “lack of knowledge” on the part of his adversaries.
A krayt dragon has no military knowledge, yet it's still considered an accomplishment to kill one because of their sheer power. Supposing that a krayt dragon somehow acquired military knowledge, it'd be nigh-impossible to kill. Someone who has both superpowers and normal combat skills is inherently stronger than someone who only has the latter. Therefore it's reasonable to assume some deficiency in the supers' combat training in cases where they lose to someone without superpowers.
>Therefore it's reasonable to assume some deficiency in the supers' combat training in cases where they lose to someone without superpowers.
This is the kind of non-thinking that gets people killed. “He can’t POSSIBLY defeat me! I have superpowers and MILITARY KNOWLEDGE!”
If you're up against someone who has the exact same training you have and twice as many weapons to choose from, taking them head-on is almost always a bad idea. Fighting Force users without Force powers is basically asymmetrical warfare, because the other side just plain has more capabilities. No competent military commander would order their soldiers to fight superpowered beings without having serious terrain advantage, vastly superior numbers, or another tide-turning factor in their favor. All other things being equal, the side with superpowers and military training should always win. If they don't, their training obviously wasn't good enough. People with powers can develop hubris from thinking their training is better than it is, but there's another kind of non-thinking that also gets people killed, and that's thinking that honor, valor and good tactics will let you win when you just don't have the necessary firepower and equipment. Competent military commanders know when they're overmatched and need to retreat. The Jedi didn't have very many of those, though. They grew arrogant and thought they could beat anyone just because they had Force powers, so they neglected military training, enabling people without Force powers to defeat them.
>Supposing that a krayt dragon somehow acquired military knowledge, it'd be nigh-impossible to kill.
you could probably just shoot it with a really big gun
>Supposing that a krayt dragon somehow acquired military knowledge
Why didn't Sheev think to clone himself into a krayt dragon body?
That applies to anything, though.
Probably because it's easier to do all that political wheeling and dealing he does as a human.
Could pelvic-based laserdick combat actually work without it looking totally ridiculous? And I'm speaking of in a possible setting where the Schwartz only manifests its power through your dong. Could the Schwartz even be used for raping bitches as effectively as it can be used to destroy ones balls?
>I am your father's, brother's, nephew's former roommate.
Never payed attention to this line before, doesn't this make Helmet Lonestsar's former roommate?
Either that or Lonestar has a brother he doesn't know about. But still, a revelation like that deserves its own Spaceballs novel. Shame they didn't have their own comical parody EU outside of that shitty cartoon that used to be on G4.
Trakata is the best lightsaber form.
>"Oh, you want to block? Oops, looks like I toggled my blade."
It is the master troll of lightsaber combat.
Its pretty brilliant honestly, but some media shows lightsabers toggling at varying speeds. Can the toggling speed be altered much like a saber can be customized?
It gets even better when you start bringing the Force into it. Reach out and depress the activation stud on your opponent's saber at (in)opportune times for maximum lulz.
I'd like to talk about Trispzest, but there isn't enough room left in this thread for that. Maybe in the next one we can talk about aerial lightsaber combat, or other odd locations to have a lightsaber duel, like underwater or in zero-g.
Why not? Isn't the bump limit 500 posts?
Bordo, can't you do something about this?
Check the sticky, Bordo pulled through. Can we have that write up, swordplay-anon?
I see the bump limit has been extended. Thanks to Bordo for that. So where would we start with lightsaber combat in a nonstandard environment?
I don't remember anyone in here talking about a writeup besides my lightlance one, which has already been posted starting in >>10611.
You wanted to talk about Trispzest, no? Definitely a very niche style (though I find it interesting that it's described as a variant of From VII and not a specialized form of Ataru).
You'd definitely think there'd be more Ataru in it, but this isn't the first time they've said something about a lightsaber style that didn't make a lot of sense. I tend to think an aerial fighting style would be a lot like flying a fighter. You'd make a pass at the target and then come back around and try again. Hovering in place doesn't really give you anything you couldn't get on the ground.
Sadly, nobody ever really made any comments about the lightlance writeup, possibly because it's long. Though maybe with the higher bump limit people will have something to say.
>Sadly, nobody ever really made any comments about the lightlance writeup, possibly because it's long. Though maybe with the higher bump limit people will have something to say.
Personally, I just read and enjoyed. It all sounds good to me, I just can't add very much meaningful to such an in-depth analysis because I don't know enough about how melee combat actually works.
What, they didn't teach you about melee combat in Starfleet Academy? But you helped a bit as I mentioned in >>12475. Don't worry about not being able to add too much on account of lacking understanding, because even people who've trained in melee combat for a long time don't fully understand it. It can work many different ways in many different circumstances. There's no set procedure for how to defeat any given opponent. It's all about what works for you personally.
>Cross-steps and sidesteps are vital, because they let you stay at the outer ring of defense while not forcing you to redirect your momentum as much as a backstep would, and whenever possible, you should do a cross-step or sidestep instead of a backstep. The only time this is hard is in confined spaces or against multiple opponents. In these situations, you should always attempt to isolate a few enemies at a time. There's no guaranteed tactic against multiple opponents, but your range will give you a better chance than most. With that said, it's time to talk bladework.
This part here is the most descriptive as to how this style would appear visually. I envision a lightlance user as drawing out enemies from the edge of a crowd, then tracing circles or semicircles around them as they sidestep and jab. Would look pretty nice, and polearms are really underused in fantasy media. Could also be possibly adapted to RPGs, though at the moment I don't know anyone interested in starting a game.
>polearms are really underused in fantasy media
This is so true. When looking at Wookieepedia's article on the guard shoto, I was surprised to see that it first appeared right after TPM's release in one of the Darth Maul comics. You'd think we would have seen a lance a lot sooner. Yet another example of why this is the worst timeline.
Some points about spears coming from someone doing HEMA for a couple of years and has experimented with a couple of weapons.
- spears are ridiculously easy to handle. If you have some expierience with swords, especially longswords you can use a spear easilly. Little additional training required.
- spears are superior to swords in most situations, simply because of more reach. The spearman can hit (or feint) at any time extremely quickly, and the swordsman can do noting to reataliate because he is out of range. If the swordsman manages to bridge the distance though the spearman is fucked in most cases and can do little to defend himself and will be to slow to back off.
- If the swordsman has a shield the spearman has a much more difficult time and probably needs to focus on attacking the legs, if he can.
-Multiple spearmen will beat multiple swordsmen every time, even if the spearmen are worse fighters, provided they have enough room.
-Spears will have a hard time in confined spaces, where they loose their reach advantage.
Now for the reason Jedi don't use spears: They are very impractical out of combat. A (Light)saber can be easily carried at the belt, a spear cannot. Every time you want to move through a narrow doorway the spear is going to be in your way.
You want to enter a cockpit? Better toss your lightspear.
You want to blend in? Not with a lightspear.
You want to draw your weapon in a barfight? Not with a lightspear.
A better alternative imo would be something like a lightbajonet, like a walking stick that you can attach your lightsaber on, like Kazdan Paratus had in TFU if I remember correctly. It gives you the additional reach but only in situations when it's useful, without the disadvantages.
One more thing:
Lightsabers basically need to have weight at the blade. A saber so much balanced at the hilt would be pretty much useless for parrying anything, especially other blades. Balance towards the tip is necessary, so your opponent can't just smash through your parries.
The given lightsaberweights on wookieepedia seem to indicate to me, that this could even be the case.
Of course the blade balance would depend on the wielder then, a Makashi practitioner would use a more grip-balanced saber, while a Djem-So practitioner would want more weight at the blade.
Good to have someone with HEMA experience here. My martial arts training is primarily in Eastern arts, so it's good to compare notes. Of course, spear handling doesn't differ too much from region to region, barring some very exotic and rare polearm types.
>spears are superior to swords in most situations, simply because of more reach.
Definitely the biggest draw, but sword users can use greatswords in lieu of normal-sized swords to even the odds a bit. Of course, you then have some of the same confined space problems a spear can have, and it's arguably worse for a greatsword because most of their techniques are slashing-based, and that requires a lot of room immediately around you, while spear thrusts only require room in front of you.
>The spearman can hit (or feint) at any time extremely quickly, and the swordsman can do noting to reataliate because he is out of range.
This is the other big trait of spears besides range. You can apply a great deal more torque on a spear shaft than on a sword hilt, and that means better handling.
>If the swordsman manages to bridge the distance though the spearman is fucked in most cases and can do little to defend himself and will be to slow to back off.
Using a longer spearhead can mitigate this somewhat, especially since unlike a conventional spear there's no weight penalty for it when your blade is pure energy. However, one of the ultra-close-range things a regular lightsaber can do better than a lightlance is Trakata. When most of the weapon's length is the shaft, there's no point to using Trakata, but it makes a big difference when most of the weapon's length is the blade. You could also switch to staff fighting methods when someone manages to get close, but Trakata could put a damper on this. I don't think Trakata has been given enough thought in general.
>If the swordsman has a shield the spearman has a much more difficult time and probably needs to focus on attacking the legs, if he can.
This is also true of 2-handed swords versus sword-and-shield. You could rotate your spearhead and turn it into a war scythe to get around shields, but it becomes harder to handle and you lose some range. Or you could use your spear with a shield of your own. But if you're going to just use a standard spear, it's going to be easier to get their legs than with a 2-handed sword.
>Multiple spearmen will beat multiple swordsmen every time, even if the spearmen are worse fighters, provided they have enough room.
>Spears will have a hard time in confined spaces, where they loose their reach advantage.
You have to get pretty confined before a sword gains a decisive advantage. If you're in a narrow hallway, for instance, a spear is still better. It's true that the more confined your space is the more range advantage you lose, but it's still possible to fight competently with a spear in the vast majority of situations. It just ceases to be the ultimate "fuck you, you can't hit me" button against other melee weapons in some. If you've got a formation of spearmen though, you're as good as gold.
>Now for the reason Jedi don't use spears:
All these reasons are valid because the Jedi are often sent on diplomatic missions or espionage missions where they can't haul a spear around. Lances would be a better choice for a more militaristic Force-using order that basically only exists to break faces. Still, we should definitely see more Jedi with double sabers or a basic blaster pistol at least.
>A better alternative imo would be something like a lightbajonet, like a walking stick that you can attach your lightsaber on
A takedown lance of some sort would be very helpful, but focusing on lance training is still of a more battle-oriented bent than the Jedi are supposed to be.
>Of course, you then have some of the same confined space problems a spear can have, and it's arguably worse for a greatsword because most of their techniques are slashing-based, and that requires a lot of room immediately around you, while spear thrusts only require room in front of you.
Agreed. Interestingly though there are sources that deal with this specific problem, explaining how to use a Greatsword in confined spaces.
I would say that Greatswords are way harder to handle than spears though.
>Using a longer spearhead can mitigate this somewhat, especially since unlike a conventional spear there's no weight penalty for it when your blade is pure energy. However, one of the ultra-close-range things a regular lightsaber can do better than a lightlance is Trakata. When most of the weapon's length is the shaft, there's no point to using Trakata, but it makes a big difference when most of the weapon's length is the blade. You could also switch to staff fighting methods when someone manages to get close, but Trakata could put a damper on this. I don't think Trakata has been given enough thought in general.
Agreed on spearhead lengh and Trakata, but I don't see staff fighting to be very promising. The best thing you can do when your opponent bridged the gap is use the butt of your staff, and he will expect that. Your biggest problem is your opponent can now grab your shaft (no homo) and control your movement.
>Lances would be a better choice for a more militaristic Force-using order that basically only exists to break faces. Still, we should definitely see more Jedi with double sabers or a basic blaster pistol at least.
…Like the Imperial Red Guard for example.
I have my problems with double lightsabers, maybe because double swords are almost never used in Western martial arts. Your might come to a different conclusion coming from an Eastern system, however I find the use of another sword in the off-hand not as useful most of the time and there are limited occasions where it actually helps anything. On the other hand having a free left hand might help in using the Force, grabing the opponents swordgrip or swordarm, grappling etc.
>Interestingly though there are sources that deal with this specific problem, explaining how to use a Greatsword in confined spaces.
Sadly, I've seen few good sources of this type for spears. It's a bother because you need at least 3 sides of you open to use a greatsword, but only one to use a spear, so you'd think there'd be more spear stuff like this out there.
>The best thing you can do when your opponent bridged the gap is use the butt of your staff, and he will expect that. Your biggest problem is your opponent can now grab your shaft (no homo) and control your movement.
You could always resort to hand-to-hand, but since you have a two-handed weapon it's going to be harder. Staff fighting is going to be necessary at some point. But really, the best thing to do is never let them get close. My focus with the lightlance has been primarily on jabbing because of the obvious range advantage of a lance, but there were a few questions I never really addressed, like beating reverse grip users, who naturally have to get closer to attack unless they're dual-wielding and only using one of the sabers in reverse grip, like Ahsoka does. There also isn't enough detail about how the slashing motions work. In Chinese spearmanship, almost every slash could be mistaken for a parry, and almost everything you do is ultimately to set up a jab. Most of your successes in dueling as a spearman are going to be with properly lined up thrusts. But if you're against someone especially agile like Yoda, or a reverse grip user like Starkiller or Ahsoka, who are both very agile themselves, you need another option, and that option is going to have to be a more developed slashing game to keep all angles covered.
Part of me also thinks my writeup should have included more references to the obvious fact that a polearm's advantage is its greater reach, but I kind of feel like if you didn't know that, what are you even doing reading this? Maybe an extension/revision is in order with more about how to operate in confined spaces and use effective slashing techniques to keep those especially evasive, slippery foes from getting away and getting through your guard.
>I have my problems with double lightsabers, maybe because double swords are almost never used in Western martial arts. Your might come to a different conclusion coming from an Eastern system, however I find the use of another sword in the off-hand not as useful most of the time and there are limited occasions where it actually helps anything.
The double saber idea comes mainly from the fact that most enemies will be using blasters, and from a need to carry more than just a single lightsaber to deal with anti-lightsaber weapons, while still maintaining that Jedi constraint of not going for long arms. I don't really do dual-wielding myself.
Also, do you know anything about how to use a tonfa, or know of anyone who does? I'm guessing not because the tonfa is an Eastern weapon, but you're the only other person who's come in here who's said anything about having any real martial arts experience.
>Sadly, I've seen few good sources of this type for spears. It's a bother because you need at least 3 sides of you open to use a greatsword, but only one to use a spear, so you'd think there'd be more spear stuff like this out there.
There are quite a few on quarterstaff, which might even be a better comparison, since one will also strike and not only stab with it.
As I already said, the (Light)spear would probably handle similar to the (Light)sword, As the 15th century German manuscript MS 3227a states:
>Who will learn to fight with the staff he shall first before all know and mark that a staff shall rightly be twelve spans long, and that the fighting with the staff is taken from the sword, and as one fights with the sword so he fights also with the staff; and the principals that there pertain to the sword such as, Before, After, Braveness, Quickness, Cunning, Prudence ect… they pertain also to the staff.
>like beating reverse grip users
Could you explain to me what would be the advantage of a reverse grip in sword use? I know it from daggers, and that there are some advantages there, but with sword it seems completely retarded to me. It sacrifices leverage, feeling, force and an enormous amount of reach for what exactly? It's usage in movies I could only explain through ignorance and that it looks cool.
>Maybe an extension/revision is in order with more about how to operate in confined spaces and use effective slashing techniques to keep those especially evasive, slippery foes from getting away and getting through your guard.
Yes, imo that would be the way to go, also when you need to apply close combat techniques.
>The double saber idea comes mainly from the fact that most enemies will be using blasters, and from a need to carry more than just a single lightsaber to deal with anti-lightsaber weapons, while still maintaining that Jedi constraint of not going for long arms. I don't really do dual-wielding myself.
Okay that might be, however having something like a "backup" weapon doesn't seem to fit the Jedi attitude towards a very religious "this weapon is your life" approach either.
>Also, do you know anything about how to use a tonfa, or know of anyone who does? I'm guessing not because the tonfa is an Eastern weapon, but you're the only other person who's come in here who's said anything about having any real martial arts experience.
>having something like a "backup" weapon doesn't seem to fit the Jedi attitude towards a very religious "this weapon is your life" approach either.
NJO Jedi were a lot more utilitarian. Many carried blasters as backup weapons when they thought they might need them, and they usually didn't wear robes outside of ceremonies.
Would a lightwhip that can straighten itself out during combat to work as a lightsaber be possible? Would it be overpowered or completely uncontrollable and insane to use? It combines aspects of both weapons, offering you the benefit of both long range and close range without forsaking melee.
It would be very difficult to control; every time you made a lateral swipe and missed there's a chance of it curling around and hitting you. If you make a vertical swipe and miss the tips cuts into the ground and may or may not get lodged in there. Further, because of all the angular momentum the whip has once you're committed to a swing it's that much more difficult to reverse it. Such a weapon would stay in sword mode all the time except for some really niche circumstances.
It wouldn't be hard to control at all for a force user. You could even keep the whip propelled in midair. It would require a lot of training and concentration, but it would prove a great weapon for force users and a great way to kill yourself if you're not.
>There are quite a few on quarterstaff, which might even be a better comparison, since one will also strike and not only stab with it.
I'll have to take a look at that link, but you could also probably pull some slashing techniques from the saberstaff, as well as ordinary lightsaber forms and the little we've seen of the lightlance being used. The form I outlined could be seen as just one of many forms for the lightlance. It's a basic form that provides a foundation for other forms to build on, like Shii-Cho. It's more aggressive and fluid than a basic form tends to be, though. You could make a more defensive variant of it, but if you do that, you risk not pressing the attack enough to stop someone from getting inside your defenses. Juyo seems like the only form out of the classic 7 that's offense-heavy enough to apply to this, but the NJO fast and medium styles can both deliver a respectable volume of attacks.
>Could you explain to me what would be the advantage of a reverse grip in sword use?
Better defense is pretty much the only advantage. Reverse grip users can push other melee weapons aside better than a normal grip. This is something spearmen need to watch out for due to the shaft's length offering more torque. The enemy can take advantage of that too.
>Yes, imo that would be the way to go, also when you need to apply close combat techniques.
I'm open to suggestions on this.
I said earlier that the saberstaff and the lance don't really handle very much alike, and that's still true, but there's maybe a 10-20% overlap between the saberstaff and the lance. Adding that to some sword techniques might be enough for another form.
I just remembered that I neglected something a reverse gripped normal lightsaber can do better, but it ties in to some extent with its aforementioned better defense. The fact that you lose reach means it can operate well in confined spaces where long weapons like greatswords and spears have a hard time, so that makes it doubly important to come up with better methods for the long weapons.
What about a Grand Slayber?
Sure, but if you have the proficiency to use pure Force telekinesis to manipulate the cutting edge like that, why bother with a whip when you can just use conventional sabers? Since you're using TK to govern the motion of the whip and keep it from whipping back at you, you've made the angular momentum of the cutting blade a non-issue either way: When it's neutralized it won't bite you in the ass, but without that angular momentum you're also missing out on most of the advantages of using a whip at all.
>The fact that you lose reach means it can operate well in confined spaces
Anon, I have a little challenge for you - go pick up a handy pole/hockeystick/broomhandle and hold it reversed, then go into a hall and try to swing it without hitting the walls. You will find it is far far harder and clumsier to do so in a tight space than holding it conventionally.
You can't really swing it in either case. When you get that close, it's pretty much a parrying dagger, which is meant to be held in reverse.
Isn't that just a laser gun/particle beam gun packaged in a sword form factor? Not that I'm complaining, it's pretty cool.
>I'm open to suggestions on this.
Look at this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GoQlvc_H3s&t=57s or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyVu0z4aGFc for example.
Two problems here: There are many grips into the blade, which is not a big Problem with sharp metal, because it needs to move in order to cut, but unless you have Mandalorian crushgaunts I wouln't reccomend it with a lightsaber. Second: this is swordplay, but some of those would also work with staffs and spears, and there you have more options to wrestle, since there is more of your weapon, that you can safely grip.
>Better defense is pretty much the only advantage. Reverse grip users can push other melee weapons aside better than a normal grip. This is something spearmen need to watch out for due to the shaft's length offering more torque. The enemy can take advantage of that too.
I have to disagree. Imo the reverse grip gives worse defence against upper and lower openings, and it makes your defence more passive, giving you not much to work with after you have deflected. Also the pushing aside effect exists with daggers, yes, but it implies that you basically make it a cover for your forearm, with wouldn't work with lightsabers as they would cut into said forearm.
Parrying daggers are meant to be held upwards as well, since they are meant to defend againt long range thrusts using a wiping hand movement, something that can't be done with a reverse grip.
You can always stab. That's a truism here because in a hallway, reach is king, so your only option to get past the point of your opponent's weapon if yours is shorter is to parry it.
>Imo the reverse grip gives worse defence against upper and lower openings, and it makes your defence more passive, giving you not much to work with after you have deflected.
It does fine against upper openings, but not lower ones because your arms are farther away from the enemy's blade. The idea with reverse grip is that you can muscle inside their guard with it and then transition to hand-to-hand fighting. It's absolutely true that it offers you fewer options outside of this. However, upper and lower openings are rarely used with spears, so that makes it a good candidate for dealing with them. I think reverse grip is better as a single technique rather than an entire fighting style. Instead of always fighting with reverse grip, you should fight normally and then switch to it at opportune moments. If you're up against multiple opponents, reverse grip is a bad idea because of the loss of reach. The only exception to this might be dual-wielding with one sword forward and one reversed, and I'm not big on dual-wielding because a 2-handed weapon gives you more leverage. I doubt a 1-handed reverse grip could turn a spear aside with nearly as much ease, but I haven't explored the details of the 1-forward 1-reverse style.
>it implies that you basically make it a cover for your forearm, with wouldn't work with lightsabers as they would cut into said forearm.
Starkiller does that all the time and doesn't have that problem. Admittedly, Force powers probably help with this. With reverse grip in real life, you can only do this with a single-edged blade. This is why you only really see it with Japanese swords.
>However, upper and lower openings are rarely used with spears, so that makes it a good candidate for dealing with them.
In my experience the superiority of the spear comes from the ability to switch very quickly between poking to the head and poking to the leg. You can move your speartip very quickly because you have a very long lever. This is made even worse by a reverse grip on the side of the swordsman. Normally he can have his weapon in front of him and defend against feints and changes only by wrist movements, whereas with a reverse grip he has to raise and lower his whole arm at any movement his opponent moves his spear.
On turning aside a spear: When gripping a sword normally in one hand I would be confident in succeed in this, because remember that, from the point where the weapons connect, the spearman is at the end of a very long lever, despite being two handed, whereas the swordsman will have this lever very close to his hand and will therefore be able to bring in much more power.
Do you have any sources on reverse gripped Japanese swords? I am still curious on how that would have worked out.
>In my experience the superiority of the spear comes from the ability to switch very quickly between poking to the head and poking to the leg. You can move your speartip very quickly because you have a very long lever.
Heads and legs are much smaller targets than the chest. A competent opponent will dodge most thrusts directed to the head or legs. If you have to go for the legs, for instance because they have a shield, a slash is better.
>Do you have any sources on reverse gripped Japanese swords? I am still curious on how that would have worked out.
There are some good sources on the subject that can be found on the first few pages of Google search results (though you should be using StartPage or some other proxy search site because fuck Google).
This is the very first result that comes up, and it explains why reverse grip is a close-in fighting method. In particular, it points out that the blade moves more quickly in reverse grip because it's no longer pivoting around your wrist, but instead around the blade's center of mass, so even though you have to move your whole arm instead of just pivoting the blade, the pivot goes faster. Realistically, you're still going to have to move your arm even with a normal grip to gain maximum leverage when defending against a polearm, so it's a wash in that respect.
The second result is a video that demonstrates the basic form, though as I said earlier, it's generally better as a technique than a full form. This video also includes a link to Skallagrim's video on the subject, though I don't think he really gets reverse grip. Most people don't, and it's not common. I don't use it too much myself either. I'm only really interested in it because it presents a possibility of countering spears.
This is kind of an aside, but on the subject of whose military is ultimately superior, I'm curious whether there's enough material to have a grand strategy thread about the Star Wars galaxy. There are already a couple of threads dealing with military tactics. In my view, the Empire only lost to the Alliance because they made a lot of stupid mistakes, and the same goes for the Mandalorian War. Before Revan took charge of the war effort, the Republic was getting its ass kicked despite having an immensely superior industrial base and more military materiel.
A lot of shit to comment on here, coming in at this late stage into the discussion.
>curved sword hilts
Did exist with conventional sword, both with one and two-handed swords. But mostly in either one-handed thrusting swords or in single-bladed cutting swords.
Would probably be the most effective type of style with lightsabers; the issues with using two regular swords are pretty much made moot by the lightsaber. 1) The weight and handling issues is negated by the lesser weight, 2) the shallow cuts from only using one hand is negated by the nature of the blade, 3) since no one ever actually does proper blade binds with a lightsaber, worrying about leverage in a bind is moot, 4) the lack of leverage when blocking or hitting is mostly mitigated by the fact that other lightsabers don't have weight either.
I mean, grab a broom handle and have someone hit against a guard, any guard really, with another broom handle. The lack of momentum from the low weight means that you don't need that much leverage to keep your block from collapsing.
Better yet, as they attack you, just hit their hand with the other lightsaber in a single tempo; two attacks in one instant.
>With reverse grip in real life, you can only do this with a single-edged blade
Use the flat, dofus. Hell, see Chinese butterfly swords in use. Flat against forearm, parry weapon from above and glide it to the hilt where the curved crossguard can trap it long enough for you to just stab them with your other butterfly sword. Generally blocking with the flat on the forearm is safer too, since the impact spreads on a wider area. With the back, you're still liable to get a hard hit on a relatively small area.
The Japanese reverse grip drawcuts are another thing entirely, since there you're already resting your arm against it on the moment of impact so it doesn't transfer into you in the same way.
Conversely, holding it in reverse grip with a lightsaber to rest against your forearm doesn't work. At all.
>reverse grip useful at all?
Certainly, but it's a trick that works because you flip the rules and change the way your body mechanics affect binds and stuff. Generally not the best idea and overall a terrible idea for a complete style, but useful at times.
>whips are useless
Completely disagree, at least as long as the whip itself has some sort of weight. Controlling a whip is easy and as long as you throw in a killswitch in case of a fuck up, it's perfectly viable. Make it out of material that resists lightsabers and you've got a 10/10 weapon.
See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3A10pzuoJE (Dude is trained in rapier and sabre as well; worked in dozens of movies.)
Hell, make it controllable so that the whip can turn on into a lightsaber in segments and you can create loops or garrotes after you've entraped them.
I had an idea for a design for this some months back, so I made a rough design in ms paint :V
But I'll take a closer look at the lightlance post above in a moment.
>the three rings of defense
Afaik this is from Jet Kune Do, which mainly deals with unarmed and short range combat. Therefore it should be it is ill suited for a long arm such as a spear. Drawing from HEMA, I would instead give it something like five rings.
Also known as zufechten or largo in German and Italian longsword, for example. This is the distance where you cannot hit him and he cannot hit you. Some argue that it is the distance where you can hit him with a single passing step A regular step, rear foot becoming the front foot essentially. Short of the lunge which is used sparingly and at critical moments only, it is the longest step available as it offers the balance of long distance with control and maneuverability. as you strike at the same time and others argue that it is such that even if you take a passing step and strike, you will still be unable to hit them. This has to do with Indes and Fuhlen, with not over committing to an attack without knowing what he's going to do, but in this short reply it's far too complicated to properly explain.
Simply put, this is the range where neither can hit the other, but when either attacks and the other defends, you end up close enough that your weapons become entangled and if the other were to lose their weapon then they would be within distance to be struck down. It is the safest distance and generally where most of the time would be spent; you breathe and think here; you observe him and try to outwit him. You switch between guards and stances, mirroring him in a game of Rock, Paper & Scissors where there are more exceptions and loopholes than solid rules.
Also known as kriegen and stretto in German and Italian longsword. Here, even without taking a step or moving your feet at all, you could reach out and hit each other. Generally at this range, your weapons will be entangled, but you can't do stuff like punching or kicking them. What most people think of when they consider a sword fight. Footwork in an out of this range happens constantly, as both try to get an upper hand.
Here you can punch or kick them. Generally not the best idea, since you'll have to remove a limb from the weapon and lose leverage or you'll lose mobility and have poorer balance with only one foot on the ground, but it can be worth it if you have good timing and sense. A weak push at their elbow can cause their entire body to be turned around at a critical moment, giving you free range to their open back.
At this range, you are so close that your weapons are completely entangled. Things like snaking your arm around theirs and doing a joint lock or throw become feasible. Watch out for headbutts and knee kicks to the groin.
Extremely close range, torsos are touching and weapons become difficult to use. You're also often on the ground, panting and wet with sweat with another man on top of you. Remember to say "No homo" just in case.
Don't get it, but sounds strange from the perspective of HEMA.
But why? Just push laser into squishy flesh; it sizzles just fine without drawing it through.
Sounds very much like naginata-jutsu, which I am not a terribly big fan of.
Generally, you always open with a cut and then turn that into a thrust; either they don't parry and you should have an opening to thrust into, or; they parry and you strike them aside with the force of your blow, thus you can thrust, or; they parry and you don't get right of way, thus you pull back or strike from another angle.
As your kata shows, opening with a thrust directly leads to being forced parry in order to go into a slash, because you need to pull back the tip in order to be able to strike forward with it again.
Then again, I am quite heavy on Meyer and Fiore, so take it however you will.
Eh, it's okay.
The more the merrier. The bump limit was just raised to 500, so we're actually closer to the middle of the discussion than the end.
>Use the flat, dofus.
This works for blocking, but if you want to hit anything with it you need the blade.
>lightlance of over a thousand generations in MS Paint
The telescoping hilt is an interesting feature, but I'd be worried that doing it like that would make its outer shell thin enough that an enemy lightsaber might be able to chop through it even if it were built of cortosis or phrik. Lightsaber-resistant materials aren't completely invulnerable to lightsabers; they just don't get cut like butter.
>Generally not the best idea and overall a terrible idea for a complete style, but useful at times.
Very much agreed with this, but is it improved at all if you dual-wield and use reverse grip only with the offhand weapon?
In the Star Wars universe, this is the range where people would be slinging Force powers and firing blasters, so it deserves more focus than in real martial arts.
>But why? Just push laser into squishy flesh; it sizzles just fine without drawing it through.
Draw cuts aren't the only thing you can do, they're just a unique advantage of a lightsaber that makes it much easier to hit someone while you're reeling your weapon back if you didn't hit them with the initial attack.
>Sounds very much like naginata-jutsu, which I am not a terribly big fan of.
>Generally, you always open with a cut and then turn that into a thrust; either they don't parry and you should have an opening to thrust into, or; they parry and you strike them aside with the force of your blow, thus you can thrust, or; they parry and you don't get right of way, thus you pull back or strike from another angle.
My preference for opening with a thrust is meant as a zoning tool to rapidly build momentum and put the opponent on the defensive, but that's certainly not the only valid way to fight. You could make a workable combo the way you describe here as well.
>As your kata shows, opening with a thrust directly leads to being forced parry in order to go into a slash, because you need to pull back the tip in order to be able to strike forward with it again.
The difference is the draw cut. Unlike in real-life spear fighting, pulling the tip back is another strike. This is another reason to open with a thrust, though I often prefer that even with normal weapons.
>Then again, I am quite heavy on Meyer and Fiore, so take it however you will.
Outside of YouTubers, the only HEMA authority I'm familiar with is George Silver. As I understand it, despite how long it's been since he was alive, he's still the standard for Western historical combat.
> Heads and legs are much smaller targets than the chest. A competent opponent will dodge most thrusts directed to the head or legs. If you have to go for the legs, for instance because they have a shield, a slash is better.
No. You can't dogdge a thrust without bringing your weapon in because the body moves way slower than the hand (according to George Silver there is a time of the foot, of the body, of the arm and of the hand, the latter ones are always quicker than the former ones) What you could do is shift your leg backwards, but that won't help against a long range weapon.
Look at some youtube videos of freeplay vs spear, there is not much dodging there, you need to control the opponents weapon.
> it points out that the blade moves more quickly in reverse grip because it's no longer pivoting around your wrist, but instead around the blade's center of mass, so even though you have to move your whole arm instead of just pivoting the blade, the pivot goes faster.
No. First also with a normal grip you learn to always pivot your weapon arount the pivot point to gain speed, second you don't need to pivot to change direction, it's much faster to return your movement with a backhand strike.
Ha, great to have more company.
>1) The weight and handling issues is negated by the lesser weight, 2) the shallow cuts from only using one hand is negated by the nature of the blade, 3) since no one ever actually does proper blade binds with a lightsaber, worrying about leverage in a bind is moot, 4) the lack of leverage when blocking or hitting is mostly mitigated by the fact that other lightsabers don't have weight either.
It feels like you come from longsword or some two handes weapon, since all your points come back to wielding a one handed sword. This isn't the problem though with dual wielding. As you will know one handed sword use was way more common and enduring in most cultures, including the West, whereas two handed swords were used comparatively short.
The problem with dual wielding is that it fucks up your body mechanics and positioning and that your offhand sword is more inhibitingly in your own way than it is actually useful. You can use both your weapons separately, but this will limit your attack pattern a lot. There is a reason why in dual wielding the offhand weapon was much shorter most of the time.
The problems dual wielding has are not at all nullified by lightsabers.
Considering the weight: Wookiepedia says 1 kg on total weight, but I've heard between ,5 and 2kg. All this mass in the handle would make it really clunky, so I suspect there must be some weight to the blade. Another problem would be that any vibroblade user could just smash through your parade with such a gripheavy weapon.
Notice that he has his main hand in a normal grip and only his left hand is reversed at the pommel. This is something different to me, especially since in longsword the left hand should always be rather flexible in general.
Nice design on the lance, it kinda depends on how well the telescope works but apart from that, thats what i would use as well. Alternatively a dual phase lightsaber, that can be used like a messer or like a rapier.
>But why? Just push laser into squishy flesh; it sizzles just fine without drawing it through.
I think the point is to make covering blows, which push cuts are generally to a lesser extent. Covering blows are important to avoid double hits, which cannot be afforded with lightsabers.
>Generally, you always open with a cut and then turn that into a thrust; either they don't parry and you should have an opening to thrust into, or; they parry and you strike them aside with the force of your blow, thus you can thrust, or; they parry and you don't get right of way, thus you pull back or strike from another angle.
This is true for swordplay in a medieval tradition, and all of longsword I guess, but you got thrust->cut a lot with later systems like in rapier and later sabre (both use cuts in front of the body, unlike what you might be familiar with). I would also apply it to a spear, especially with feinting, which you can do a lot, because your out of range opponent can't immediately punish you for it.
>In the Star Wars universe, this is the range where people would be slinging Force powers and firing blasters, so it deserves more focus than in real martial arts.
Fiore deals with opponents that throw stuff at you (like but not limited to force powers and blaster bolts), he names a guard and quite boldly states that it can deflect whatever the opponent throws at you, forgot the name though.
I thought of a better image to describe what the style is supposed to look like. Think E. Honda from Street Fighter, except instead of a ton of punches it's spear thrusts. You'd get some parries and slashes mixed in there too, but overall it's a lot of stabbing while arcing around various people and/or things.
>No. You can't dogdge a thrust without bringing your weapon in because the body moves way slower than the hand
That depends on how you're trying to dodge it. If you want to pivot, you need to bring the weapon in, but as you say, you don't need to pivot to change direction. Sidestepping or cross-stepping doesn't require you to bring your weapon in, and you can keep pressing forward while you're doing it. It should be noted that attacks to the head are more easily avoided than attacks to the legs because moving the head doesn't require shifting the overall body weight, but it takes less effort to dodge in general if you're already moving because of inertia.
One other thing I was taught is that in the event of any kind of weapon strike to the legs, a very short hop can work as a dodge. You don't leave the ground for more than a split second, but you can continue to apply pressure. The only part of your body that substantially changes height is your feet. You can also sometimes dodge a strike to the leg by doing a rolling step and/or a partial pivot and bending the knee. This is a very small movement, but it doesn't require much of a weight shift, and it can allow you to dodge just long enough to follow up with an attack. It's also what you're supposed to do when moving, which you really should be doing anyway.
I mentioned earlier that you're supposed to have your weight on your front foot in order to maintain your momentum, but depending on your surroundings that can make it hard to dodge low attacks, or any attacks for that matter. However, if you're up against another spearman, having the weight on the back foot so you can move your front foot away quickly won't do any good because his weapon is longer. There's a possibility of adopting Zui Quan-style footwork for truly robust evasion, but that only works if you have enough room to perform it. A more expansive treatment of footwork is needed, because there are pros and cons to any weight distribution. I picked out a front-focused method in an effort to produce a relentlessly offensive style, but that's not always the best choice.
>>Look at some youtube videos of freeplay vs spear, there is not much dodging there, you need to control the opponents weapon.
I've seen some of those, and in most of them the fighters tend not to move very much. Moving too much would make the style more like Ataru, which I'm trying to avoid by making most of the movement forward-focused instead of having you constantly shift direction. This is another area in which Yoda can get away with something nobody else can. Being smaller doesn't just mean having more room to maneuver, it also means weighing less and thus being able to change direction faster.
It may have been an exaggeration to say that most competent fighters would dodge leg strikes. Methods of dodging leg strikes do exist, but controlling the opponent's weapon should always take precedence. In many cases, the correct method of dodging is to do a subtle movement along with a subtle parry to give yourself just enough clearance to avoid taking a hit while transitioning into an attack.
>This works for blocking, but if you want to hit anything with it you need the blade.
In which case the blade will be resting against the forearm, ergo it won't cut into it so double bladed is still fine.
>The telescoping hilt is an interesting feature,
That's why the blade is 20 some meters long; you're never getting close to me, chump.
>use reverse grip only with the offhand weapon?
Yeah, but you should just learn to flip instead so that you can switch between either. Entrapment with reverse off-hand is perfectly viable.
>so it deserves more focus than in real martial arts.
It's already one of the most important zones, so undoubtedly the focus would only increase.
Like kendo, it's grown too esoteric. The sources we have are either a) worthless or b) kobudo family styles who refuse to teach it and has been warped by generations of no real use. Comparing the artwork and for example modern naginata tournaments tends to show a vast difference in what they do and what they're trying to accomplish. In general, it's been sportified to hell, like kendo.
>put the opponent on the defensive
The problem with thrusts tends to be that they're a zero sum game, kind of. You either hit them or they push you off line and leave you open for a counter. It's not the best opening move, unless you're really reading them 100% correctly and just plan to kill them with an absetzen/ansetzen.
Problem with combos is that at every 0.15 seconds you should be asking yourself "should I continue with this or change my attack", since they're reacting to your moves meaning your original move has often become worthless. Kata and devices are generally—I would argue—worthless without someone explaining why you're doing this thing in this moment. Context is key to everything and with solo drills you're supposed to be "shadow boxing" against an opponent and reacting to specific stimuli. "He would do this, therefore I would do this" and then in a real fight when he does that you do it and kill him.
He's pretty good, but his beef with the mainland Europeans somewhat colors his senses iirc.
>No. You can't dogdge a thrust
Essentially just think physics: your hand is lighter than your whole body, thus it takes less effort to get your hand moving at top speed than it does your whole body. It's complicated, but with lightsabers being so light it would exacerbate it considerably, though Force prediction might mitigate it a little.
>duel wielding body mechanics
Not so, as passing footwork means your are always switching from one side to the other. It's the same as with sword and buckler; the hands are one and support one another until you find an opening and then you just kill them.
>You can use both your weapons separately, but this will limit your attack pattern a lot.
Look into Liegniczer's Sword & Buckler or Wing Chun; the hands move as one until they can spring apart. It's difficult to explain in text, but essentially the lead hand doesn't go past the rear hand so much so that you're open or vulnerable.
>but this will limit your attack pattern a lot
Limits are good; keep it simple stupid as the rule goes. Hell, Liechtenauer taught but five moves as his basis for winning every fight with a longsword. The less you need to think about in the middle of a fight, the more optimized your combat cycle is.
>There is a reason why in dual wielding the offhand weapon was much shorter most of the time.
Rapier and main gauche or katana and wakizashi are poor examples here, as for the former the off-hand weapon was merely a parrying tool and in the latter it was simply a matter of custom. Miyamoto Musashi, the guy who created the Niten Ichi-ryu school said that you should train with two katana to get used to how it works and that you only used the wakizashi due to that being the shoto set you carried(long and short sword at waist). There are numerous examples of symmetrical weapons used; double rapier in Germany; Niten Ichi as I mentioned; East Asian twin weapons(ranging from double short spears to blades of all kinds) and Cassani's Spanish double military saber etc.
>All this mass in the handle would make it really clunky,
That is literally the opposite of clunky, when it comes to sword design. Look at the third picture and what it shows you about an italian longsword. The more weight is distributed near the handle, the easier it is to control and swing. But that makes it weak, as if hitting someone with a rolled up newspaper, so you need it as forward as possible to give a cut some oomph. WIth a lightsaber, this is entirely a non-concern; it's a fucking laser sword, kinetic energy is meaningless for damage.
Buffalo's who know naught but strength shall be dispensed off with the art and not through brute force, as is proper for a swordsman. The harder you hit me, the harder my colpa di villano/ablauffen will be coming right back at you. And then when you try to avoid hitting my sword I'll just durchwechseln and laugh myself silly when you've walked into my sword. Or if you think to push through my bind, thinking my one hand weaker than your two, then I'll collapse it and make like Fiore and pommel you in the face.
>only his left hand in reverse on the longsword
It's a matter of debate; artwork shows both ways and the mechanics work both ways. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ihEZGbcFf8
>The problems dual wielding has are not at all nullified by lightsabers.
I disagree and would duel with sharps over the matter with confidence.
>Fiore deals with opponents that throw stuff at you
Sagittaria something something; Archer's guard iirc. it's the one with the sword held low and the back presented to the opponent diagonally.
>attacks to the head are more easily avoided
Falls under time of the hand and body under Silver's classification, which always loses to the time of the hand.
>shifting the overall body weight
Would be time of the hand, body and foot iirc, which is the slowest of all, yes.
>a very short hop can work as a dodge
Yes, raising the foot tends to work but it depends on the weapon. WIth longswords and sabre it's possible, but with sword and buckler if they have an opening to your legs, you're gonna get hit whether you try to dodge or not. Just a matter of timing.
Generally, any motion upwards is BAD because it means until your feet hit the ground again you are a sitting duck in terms of mobility. Jumping around gets you dead.
Generally, as seen with Scheitelhau the school of taught against leg hits was "that means they're wide open above; take their head".
>spear; the fighters tend not to move very much
That's because you don't need to. Reach dominates, that simple.
>In general, it's been sportified to hell, like kendo.
As have virtually all martial arts. The UFC has corporate sponsorships to uphold, so they have to put on a nice show. Most of the techniques used in UFC don't look anything like a real fight. It has too much emphasis on grappling, which is risky in a street fighting situation.
>Generally, any motion upwards is BAD because it means until your feet hit the ground again you are a sitting duck in terms of mobility. Jumping around gets you dead.
Your hop is supposed to be short enough to mitigate this anyway, but if you're moving beforehand instead of standing in place, you can avoid this problem.
>The problem with thrusts tends to be that they're a zero sum game, kind of. You either hit them or they push you off line and leave you open for a counter. It's not the best opening move, unless you're really reading them 100% correctly and just plan to kill them with an absetzen/ansetzen.
>That's because you don't need to. Reach dominates, that simple.
It seems that you favor an overall more defensive approach to the spear. The approach I prefer is to feint like it's going out of style because doing so offers exactly the reading opportunity you describe. Once you've got a read on them, you can get the perfect stab in. Erratic movements work to this end, and stop your own intentions from being read. Of course, I don't always open with a thrust because always doing the same thing makes you predictable and thus counterable.
which makes the whole dual wielding more pointless
>It's the same as with sword and buckler; the hands are one and support one another until you find an opening and then you just kill them.
I do a lot of sword and buckler (i.33) and it doesn't compare to dual swords a lot, because a buckler doesn't hinder your sword movement that much and works different in a lot of other ways, too.
>Look into Liegniczer's Sword & Buckler or Wing Chun; the hands move as one until they can spring apart. It's difficult to explain in text, but essentially the lead hand doesn't go past the rear hand so much so that you're open or vulnerable.
Out of curiosity we fought sword and buckler vs dual swords in my club and s&b came out superior because of this. The second sword doesn't give very much more offensive potential and the s&b guy can manage to separate his opponents weapons quite often, which is a death sentence and a commmon technique in i.33
>Limits are good
So according to your logic a one armed, paraphlegic fighter would be unbeatable. It's true that it's a good idea to keep it simple, but that doen't mean that you should limit yourself.
>There are numerous examples of symmetrical weapons used; double rapier in Germany
I can't speak for East Asia, but at least in Germany (and Italy with the Bolognese school) double rapier has never got out of a very experimental niche weapon combination that was invented to show off. Comparable to Talhoffer's shields and Mair's flail or scythe. There was single rapier and there was rapier and dagger (or buckler, cloak etc.) Let's not make assumptions from show offs but from actual Martial Art.
>That is literally the opposite of clunky, when it comes to sword design. Look at the third picture and what it shows you about an italian longsword. The more weight is distributed near the handle, the easier it is to control and swing. But that makes it weak, as if hitting someone with a rolled up newspaper, so you need it as forward as possible to give a cut some oomph. WIth a lightsaber, this is entirely a non-concern; it's a fucking laser sword, kinetic energy is meaningless for damage.
Fair enough. You still need to feel your blade though, or better: You need to feel where your point is and where it is heading, and this becomes increasingly difficult with litteraly gripbalanced swords.
>Buffalo's who know naught but strength shall be dispensed off with the art and not through brute force, as is proper for a swordsman. The harder you hit me, the harder my colpa di villano/ablauffen will be coming right back at you. And then when you try to avoid hitting my sword I'll just durchwechseln and laugh myself silly when you've walked into my sword. Or if you think to push through my bind, thinking my one hand weaker than your two, then I'll collapse it and make like Fiore and pommel you in the face.
You speak about pushing through when gaining the center. You still need to parry attacks on your body though and when you can't do that you have a problem. Think of parrying swordstrikes with a bamboocane or a modern fencing foil - it's hardly possible, and neither is something like a Fiore pommel, because in order to pull that of you need to have voided an attack first and be in a at least somehow egalitarian bind. Next time in your club just try a Fiore move against a longsword with a fencing foil, I dare you.
>I disagree and would duel with sharps over the matter with confidence.
Disagreement taken, but let's not go into internet tough guying here. My point comes from my culture (European) clearly rejecting two equal dual wielded (longer) swords, and it got around a lot to test this notion without changing it. As I said, I fought quite competent fighters with two swords with my sword and buckler and I fought experienced sabre+boarding axe (there is some source on that) with single sabre and felt myself at a disadvantage in neither case.
>Sagittaria something something;
Yeah, that must have been it.
>Generally, any motion upwards is BAD because it means until your feet hit the ground again you are a sitting duck in terms of mobility. Jumping around gets you dead.
Yep, also you need to jump really high to avoid getting hit between knee and lower body, where most attacks on the lower openings hit.
but if you're moving beforehand instead of standing in place, you can avoid this problem.
You have already telegraphed were you are going at the moment when you left off, there is no way to change that mid air, except if you can levitate. This makes you predictable and pays with a lot of tempo.
>Your hop is supposed to be short enough to mitigate this anyway,
You're still stuck in "cooldown" for the duration of that movement. Multiple sabre manuals all advice against upwards movement of any kind. The Swedes even call it evil. "Rörelse av uppåt lede är av ondo" or something.
>It seems that you favor an overall more defensive approach to the spear.
Not really; I just open with a blow and work from the bind based on what they do. Indes and Fuhlen. What you described works against amateurs, too.
>which makes the whole dual wielding more pointless
You're going to have to explain your line of thinking here, since it literally contradicts six months of sparring here on my part. You have to work with the powerline; your hand leads and the foot pushes off against the floor as you follow with the body.
>doesn't hinder your sword movement that much
Neither does a sword.
>works different in a lot of other ways, too.
It's shorter but works exactly the same; find contact, push them aside or bind them, make use of the opening. If they react somehow, entangle them further and do something nasty.
>S&B vs two swords
I'm assuming it was because the buckler user closed in and pushed at the hands; distance is key since denying the weapon with the shortest range is vital until you have an in. With two swords you bind the sword and move from there, avoiding the trappings of hand knocks as much as possible.
>paraphlegic fighter would be unbeatable
Look into the OODA loop; the simpler your combat cycle is the more quickly you can react. Even if you are weaker, smaller, less skilled, as long as you react first, you win. Also, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7prpa_e9bQA
>in Germany (and Italy with the Bolognese school)
As far as I know, it was most widely used among the Spanish, Cassani mainly. https://www.facebook.com/HEMAHUNGARY/videos/690228841100961/ (Video uploaded in case you don't want to use fb cancer; it's annoying how much the HEMA community still clings to it.)
I had a discussion with a Portugese guy who did Jogo de Pau about it btw those guys are badass. Though that one is without passing footwork, so it's not exactly what I would advocate. Iirc the German manuals mention the French and Swiss being more apt to use two rapiers, but I'd have to go digging again for those mentions.
>You still need to feel your blade though
Well that ought to be a universal problem with lightsabers. If you can use one, then the solution ought to apply to the other as well.
>parrying swordstrikes with a bamboocane or a modern fencing foil
But that has nothing to do with weight and all to do with the structural weakness of the weapon. Moreover, a foil has completely different balance—the forward node of rotation is like halfway into the weak rather than being at the tip, ffs—so any technique with that would be fucked. And yes, we recently started training kids so we bought some boffer larp swords for them. We've tried sparring with them against heavier weapons and parrying is just fine.
>longsword with a fencing foil
Like I prefaced the last bit; if we're in a bind already, and you try to force through, then sure. It will work mostly fine. Mostly, because foils have spooky balance.
>felt myself at a disadvantage in neither case.
Well, I want to say something but there's little I can prove easily.
>but let's not go into internet tough guying here
It's how I derive meaning from my life; see my Sith flag :V
Some basic info on the guy.
>"Giovanni Alberto Cassani published a military treatise in Naples in 1603.1 In this work he indicates that he was born in the town of Frassinello Monferrato in Piedmont, and that he served in the Spanish army, but little more is known about his life."
>"Cassani predominantly describes passing footwork, and exclusively employs cuts, quite unlike any comparable Italian work from the first decade of the seventeenth century. It is also of interest that in the few pages he dedicates to fencing, he discusses combat with two swords, like Altoni, Docciolini, and Palladini, 2 recommending a second sword as the first companion arm to be learned before other combinations."
>Yep, also you need to jump really high to avoid getting hit between knee and lower body, where most attacks on the lower openings hit.
Attacks to the upper part of the leg should be parried, since it's both thicker than the lower leg and closer to the other leg's upper part, and thus attacks directed to that region are more likely to hit. You'd only consider a hop if they were going for the lower leg or the foot.
>You have already telegraphed were you are going at the moment when you left off, there is no way to change that mid air
Of course you can only change direction on the ground, but if you were already moving it's going to be harder than just jumping in the direction you were moving. This idea that you can't dodge a spear thrust because it's fast basically means you can't dodge any type of attack from any weapon that doesn't have a strange weight balance like an axe or a whip. This would include swords, knives, staves, spears and bare fists. You wouldn't tell a boxer not to try to dodge any punches. Boxers are taught not only to guard, but to gently bob and weave around incoming hits instead of trying to haul their entire body mass rapidly from one direction to another.
However, Force users can redirect their movement in midair, so many of the concerns of that type don't necessarily apply to them.
>You're going to have to explain your line of thinking here, since it literally contradicts six months of sparring here on my part. You have to work with the powerline; your hand leads and the foot pushes off against the floor as you follow with the body.
Yes and therefore you basically have to move your weapons in conjunction and can't use them seperately. A buckler therefore seems way more useful in this context for me.
>Neither does a sword.
I can think of a couple of movements that are severely hindered by another sword, but I'm afraid we are hitting the limits of language here. The mere fact that passing footwork seems to play such an important role here sounds like a limit in and of itself, because in one handed sword this is not as crucial, because you can generate force by flexing the body.
>It's shorter but works exactly the same; find contact, push them aside or bind them, make use of the opening. If they react somehow, entangle them further and do something nasty.
My point is that it does this job worse though.
>denying the weapon with the shortest range is vital until you have an in.
This is also a crucial thing. In many cases your opponent can bind both of your weapons by stepping out of line, Meisterhäue like Krumphau etc. and its harder to react because you have a harder time to turn into an attack. Sorry it seems I can't explain myself properly here.
<paraphlegic fighter would be unbeatable
My point here was that simple is not the same as limited.
Thanks for this, your graphs are very useful as well!
>Iirc the German manuals mention the French and Swiss being more apt to use two rapiers, but I'd have to go digging again for those mentions.
Try looking for souces on usage in actual duels and warfare, because this is when people depend their lives on a weapon combination. To my knowledge there is nothing to speak of.
>Well that ought to be a universal problem with lightsabers. If you can use one, then the solution ought to apply to the other as well.
In my headcanon lightsabers have weight because imo it wouldn't make a lot of sense otherwise. There is also this one scene in Rebels i think (which I won't defend on anything else, but this moment is actually useful) where it is explained that lightblades actually grip into eachother like sharp steel does. Also those senseless "push struggles" you see in the movies indicate that.
>But that has nothing to do with weight and all to do with the structural weakness of the weapon
Yes it has to do with the weigt, and also to a even greater extent with balance. We used to train with single sticks for sabre and when we first had very light sticks, very much grip balanced (3-400g) people would just get through some parades unless you parried *right* above the handle, which i wouldn't recommend with guardless lightsabers.
>parrying is just fine.
Do they balance at the grip though? Because that is the main problem I would think.
Also to properly bind you need some blade presence, techniques that work from being overbound also depend on that. Again there is no proper longsword technique from literally gripheavy weapons.
>It's how I derive meaning from my life; see my Sith flag :V
Ha, why else go into swordfighting :3
>Attacks to the upper part of the leg should be parried, since it's both thicker than the lower leg and closer to the other leg's upper part, and thus attacks directed to that region are more likely to hit. You'd only consider a hop if they were going for the lower leg or the foot.
I feel like this depends on if you fight in a system that includes shifting into heels together (like 18.-19ct. systems compared to more traditional ones). In a passing step system with both hands on a weapon I would agree with you, but in British Militay Sabre for example (and many others) it is completely enough to shift the front leg back and strike to the head, making use of superior reach. Its comparable to Scheitelhau you mentioned, only as a more defensive indes movement.
I didn't mention that. You've gotten me mixed up with the Sith flag guy.
>In a passing step system with both hands on a weapon I would agree with you
Since it's a lightlance that I'm primarily concerned with, that would apply here. I'm just not feeling the whole "don't bother dodging" thing. Admittedly there are some martial systems that don't really use it, both in real life and in Star Wars. Djem So probably fits that description the best, due to Vader's use of it. His movement is naturally impaired by his injuries, so he has to make up for his lack of mobility through top-tier bladework and cybernetically enhanced strength. But if you have the full use of your limbs, it's better to have dodging capabilities even if you're not jumping around all over the place.
It's interesting that you'd mention wing chun, since it's one of the Eastern arts I've studied. Wing chun is all about controlling the center line, so although it has no particular focus on weapons, its principles are readily applicable to spears. It controls the center line through its use of chi sau, which can best be described as the hand-to-hand combat equivalent of preemptively parrying by launching numerous attacks. You can only use chi sau at mid distance, though. Too far in or out and it's no good. Chi sau is very similar to what I'm proposing to do with a lightlance, though obviously the distances will change with weapons.
One of the weird things about polearms in this setting is that they seem to be a paradox like Ataru; they're not that good for blocking gunfire, and you need room to use them to their full potential, but you should only fight guns with melee in areas where there isn't much room. If the paradox could be resolved, a lot of interesting options would open up.
I just had an epiphany about how to fight with a lightlance. All you have to do is watch how they fight with the spear in Metal Gear Survive and mimic it.
April Fools and Bible II: Jesus Returns on the same day has to be a sign.
Somewhat off topic, but I've noticed more polearms getting included in fiction these days. Is that just me or is the rate of polearm inclusion actually going up? If it is, I fear what Hollywood will do to spearmanship. Maybe it's out of some misguided attempt to appear more realistic, which knowing Hollywood will inevitably degenerate into Call of Duty-style pseudo-realism that Redditors will eat right up because they're fucking retards. At the end of it all, everyone will know exponentially less about how to fight with a spear than they did before, much like what happened with Hollywood and swordsmanship. Then again, that means people who actually know about spearmanship will have an advantage.
>can't use them seperately.
That's utterly preposterous. If you've occupied his weapon you have not only a free weapon but the advantage of fuhlen to work completely freely in all the other openings. Hell, just switching to thumb grip and changing the angle switches everything again. I mean, I fucking love sparring with two swords, because it just becomes a game of finding the first opening and then steamrolling from there.
>because you can generate force by flexing the body.
Which usually requires a lunge for anything that comes to close what you can generate with a simple passing step. As seen with the Cassani stuff, you want power.
>My point is that it does this job worse though.
No, it does not. You get a huge reach advantage in where you bind and work with his sword with two longer implements, compared to the buckler. Moreover, the sword is superior in closing the line in comparison to a buckler, so they can't just change the line to go around your block.
>In many cases your opponent can bind both of your weapons by stepping out of line
Which is also a problem with any other weapon, including sword and buckler. I fail to see your point. Getting The Hell Off The Line is like step one to winning every fight.
>My point here was that simple is not the same as limited.
I have no idea what we're even arguing about here, so whatever.
>Try looking for souces on usage in actual duels and warfare
The majority of duels were codified, meaning that you had a certain weapon or used what the challenged decreed.
In warfare, only a fraction of actual conflicts were recorded but I know that for reenactment for the War of the Roses they use historical records of battles and the deeds of specific noblemen, where there are mentions of dual wielders and how certain kills were accomplished during the War of the Roses. Based on those, they accept certain equipment and preclude some, you can even see some of them in the general fray.
One such deed includes a guy tearing off his own helmet and bashing the other guys head in with it. I forget who, it's been a while since I talked to those guys.
>where it is explained that lightblades actually grip into eachother like sharp steel does. Also those senseless "push struggles" you see in the movies indicate that.
Yeah, that's patently obvious from every duel I've seen. But that would only enhance the usefulness of a binding with one hand, because you don't need to worry about the angle as much in keeping it locked out.
>We used to train with single sticks for sabre and when we first had very light sticks, very much grip balanced (3-400g) people would just get through some parades
Don't most of the sabre guards involve the "handshake grip"? I remember reading Miyamoto Musashi and he advocated against wielding a longer sword like that. Not the part about how he tenses his fingers, but the part about wielding a long sword like a short sword/fan being wrong. Try blocking with the "hammer grip"; there's less play in the tip.
>Also to properly bind you need some blade presence, techniques that work from being overbound also depend on that.
It might be air resistance and the lightsabers interacting with each other which substitutes the physical blade.
>Again there is no proper longsword technique from literally gripheavy weapons.
Yeah, that's true. I managed to once injury myself, trying out some ultra-fast left right left zwerchs with a broken swords hilt. You need some resistance and weight for it to feel comfortable.
>Ha, why else go into swordfighting :3
For the crazy chicks? They all headbutt whenever you try to go into ringen.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
>he doesn't take lore as seriously as possible with an ascended level of dedicated assburgers
So I'm currently building a lightsaber with a Nerf gun as a hilt. The blade comes out of the barrel.
Not sure how to reinforce it, think it might wind up being a display saber since I can't think of a way to reinforce the blade.
>So I'm currently building a lightsaber with a Nerf gun as a hilt. The blade comes out of the barrel.
That sounds like it would look either really gay or somewhat interesting. Got any pics?
I finally got around to taking a look at these videos and doing a bit more work on the lightlance. The second one does a good job of showing infighting techniques. As far as infighting goes, you can choke up the grip on a spear if they get in close with a sword or knife. It's only in very rare situations that you don't have enough room to do this. The Meyer staff fighting video was the closest to what I'm looking for in general. The straight parry, thrusts with different grips and thrusting from different angles at different heights and positions are the bread and butter here. One of the best sequences depicted coming in low and thrusting diagonally up.
As I said earlier, my primary influence was Chinese spear arts, mostly xing yi quan. I have some Japanese swordsmanship training, but I'm not actually all that familiar with sojutsu or naginatajutsu, so I'm having to learn as I go here. As most of my ideas are thrusting-oriented, this would actually make what I have so far closer to sojutsu, as the naginata has more slashing capability, while sojutsu uses the yari, which is more focused on thrusting. Given that a lightsaber blade is as good at cutting as it is, more slashing techniques are possible than with either a yari or naginata, but body mechanics and reach still apply.
Also, here's a video of the 2014 Japanese men's naginata championship match, in which the finalist wearing the red flag does exactly the kind of short hop I described earlier. The ref gives the victory to the other guy in the end, but I don't know that I'd agree with that call. The red flag guy seemed to be able to get in many more hits. I don't know how their scoring system works, so I can't say for sure.
I'm also interested in spear techniques capable of succeeding against a sword and shield. A shield is probably the best counter to the spear, and I wonder why we don't see more characters with physical shields instead of personal shield generators. The best idea I've been able to find for that purpose is switching your grip to lead with the other hand, so your spear is pointing at the side of their body that holds the sword.
Behind the scenes cuz the original SW ep 4 and 5 had vader’s weapon glow a little violet at times. Special effects of the 70/80s. It was not pure red as the ones in the prequels etc so a story was invented about him finding this natural red crystal which had a tiny violet hue
I'm curious what an actual martial artist would think of these forms.
The only one I can see working is Form II, because it's essentially rapier fencing with a blade that has no weight and an ability to cut in any direction and depth with minimal inertia.
And Form III, because it was invented to deflect blasters, which 99.99% of your enemies will use.
There are several actual martial artists in this thread. Form II only works against other lightsabers, and Form III just doesn't have enough offense to be practical. Most of the classic lightsaber forms don't really work well for the purposes of defending a galaxy from many and varied threats, with the exceptions of V and VII. The other forms may occasionally work with lightsaber variants, but most Force users don't have one.
>There are several actual martial artists in this thread.
You keep using that word.
>bitches about too much martial arts autism in the thread
>bitches about no one in the thread having martial arts knowledge
So which one is it boyo? Do you have something to add to the thread or do you just like being a contrarian faggot?
I understand what they were going for with this, even if it looks really silly. Sometimes, people get stuck in a loop in the middle of a fight; the classic example is the ablauffen-ablauffen-ablauffen situation. Since this is generally an excellent counter and you can train it with the "swordsman's metronome" exercise(the same thing, really), you can get into situations where both repeat an action just to see what the other does.
Usually the first to realize it wins. See this one fight(all same video, different timestamps):
https://youtu.be/esI1fIAHNgY?t=1m51s (they do it, no clear result as one backs off)
https://youtu.be/esI1fIAHNgY?t=2m42s (Here it just goes into both doing it, the guy on the last raises his hands for a third one and his opponent realizes that "fuck, we're doing this, huh" and going for the open waist to break it.)
The forms are kind of nonsensical, but Djem So and Makashi seem the least offensive to my delicate sensibilities.
Shii-Cho is kind of contradictory but at the same time defines amateurs in a sword-fight in that you can win by being so unpredictable you might just kill someone. It might even your opponent!.
Soresu is stupid as by going full defense you aren't putting any "pressure" on your opponent, which means he has constantly the for while you're in the nach, forced to react to his moves while he has the initiative and momentum.
Ataru only works because of Force shenanigans, in particular being a huge middle finger to the concept of striking in True Time.
Niman on paper should be the best style **since if they combine all the moves and ideas from the previous styles it should have a technique for every situation, being the most "complete" of styles", but because of reasons it's just kind of bad.
Juyo/Vapaad are too esoteric to be judged on their practical merits. It just seems to be "force induced ZONE" which just makes you win. It's not entirely wrong, as getting into the flow during sparring can lead to you just steamrolling everyone, but it's not really a stable and consistent style. What if you're just not in the mood?
Shien's got the same issues as Soresu and it's noted as being weak one-on-one. And the reverse-grip form is overall pretty terrible, especially since it's one-handed from what I've seen.
Djem So I like. It's even got a high Vom Tag as its basic guard and it mentions the basic stuff that you want in German longsword. It's got the "immediately attack after parrying" and the "dominate the fight by attacking and keeping them occupied". The Fluid Riposte sounds good, too. Though given that's just what a regular riposte is, I'm feeling quite amused. If it had more Versetzen and perhaps some Winden it would be cool. Overall my favorite form.
I mostly agree with this, as you can see from reading earlier posts. Just a few little points:
>Shien's got the same issues as Soresu and it's noted as being weak one-on-one.
Shien isn't meant to be as defensive as Soresu, just more defensive than Djem So. Shien somewhat reminds me of the bladework I've seen from Chinese swordsmen, particularly jian users. It's a very aesthetically appealing form, and I think it's better than the Jedi are making it, but they refuse to improve on it because they're too stuck in the old ways. I've heard similar criticisms of Chinese martial arts in general. Some of China's martial masters despaired at the fact that traditionalism was and still is stopping their arts from being able to combat new developments.
Juyo isn't completely impossible to judge, but the only way you could replicate Juyo in real life is to give your swordsman transhuman augmentation to enable them to attack fast enough to properly perform the style.
>You will never get to fight clanker CIS scum
>>Clones were all useful idiot virgins
>>Confederacy were controlled opposition
The Sith created both. Tremble before the Masters' of Korriban, who still speak to those who are worthy enough to hear.
>just more defensive than Djem So
Everything I've seen implies that Djem So was a direct reaction to Soresu being way too defensive.
>Juyo isn't completely impossible to judge
All I've seen is "muh skirting the dark side" and "so close with the force" as descriptions, which don't really explain what you do with a lightsaber.
> Form II only works against other lightsabers
It would presumably work against swords and other melee weapons as well.
Ataru and Shien were developed together as a response to Soresu being too defensive. Djem So was only developed later on.
Ok it seems there is no point discussing the two swords issue here without weapons in hand. Let's just agree to disagree.
>The majority of duels were codified, meaning that you had a certain weapon or used what the challenged decreed.
In warfare, only a fraction of actual conflicts were recorded but I know that for reenactment for the War of the Roses they use historical records of battles and the deeds of specific noblemen, where there are mentions of dual wielders and how certain kills were accomplished during the War of the Roses. Based on those, they accept certain equipment and preclude some, you can even see some of them in the general fray.
The majority of duels used weapons that were actually used in war or in self defence situations as well. Armed people generally didn't carry around two swords back then. They carries a sword plus a buckler or a dagger for self defence maybe. And it wasn't because two swords would have been to expensive or something like that. People didn't got to war with two swords in hand except for some very rare occasions. Ask yourself why.
>Don't most of the sabre guards involve the "handshake grip"?
Nah atleast we used a hammergrip for parries. The problem is that you cannot always get the very strong of your blade in in many situations.
>For the crazy chicks? They all headbutt whenever you try to go into ringen.
Haha I would love to see that happen some time.
>I'm also interested in spear techniques capable of succeeding against a sword and shield.
As I said it's very difficult. Your best chance is changing between high and low, head and leg.
>and I wonder why we don't see more characters with physical shields instead of personal shield generators.
Thats a plus for the lightspear though, no? Your only physically shielded opponents would be Gungans.
Quality post here.
The problem with Juyo/Vapaad for me is that it seems to imply that using your emotions, especially getting angry will get you anywhere.
This doesn't seem to be true, neither from the historical sources nor from a Marial Arts standpoint. HEMA practitioners are normally calm and collected in their fights, and this is due to experience.
The usual way to learn this is: Get smashed in the face (fencing mask) very hard -> get angry -> get smashed even harder -> get angrier -> get smashed etc.
Unsurprisingly, especially those earlier fencing masters that point out the knightly virtues seem to be in line with the Jedi code more than anything. Fiore, Lichtenauer etc.
>Your best chance is changing between high and low, head and leg.
This sounds good to me. It's much faster to torque the butt end of a spear than it is to move a shield around. Shields are normally held close to the body because they're either heavy enough to take quite a bit of effort to hold up or light enough that a sufficiently forceful spear thrust will push it out of the way. You can tire your opponent out by making him move the shield around a lot. This is somewhat similar to the question of being able to dodge when it's faster to move a spear than to move your body. The answer to that is utilizing momentum and quick, subtle movements in all directions instead of lurching, and it similarly applies to the shield in that it's often better to simply duck behind it than it is to raise it.
For physical energy shields of the Gungan type, this may not necessarily apply because the mass is entirely in the rim of the shield. But there's a solution for that too, which is to add a hook to the end of your lightlance right around the emitter and use it to yank the shield away before attacking. This has been done with real polearms, notably the bill. War scythes and even poleaxes can do it as well, but with a war scythe you lose thrusting power, which is the main point of having a polearm to begin with, and poleaxes are hefty and slower to handle, negating the polearm's only other method of countering shields. The hook doesn't have to be a physical hook, either. You could create it with more lightsaber emitters, which would basically give you Kylo Ren's crossguard lightsaber in the form of a polearm. That would make it much more viable because you'd be at less risk of chopping your own hand off. Speaking of the crossguard lightsaber, we haven't spent nearly enough time mocking it. Seriously, who the fuck came up with that?
>Speaking of the crossguard lightsaber, we haven't spent nearly enough time mocking it. Seriously, who the fuck came up with that?
I'm guessing it was created exclusively for that "what the fuck is that?!" shot at the end of the first trailer they released. Also, some sources in the anti-soy wars video thread (don't recall exactly which) said that the only reason Phasma and her chrome armor were included was because Kennedy saw a concept sketch of a "knight in shining armor" stormtrooper and basically told the writers, "that looks neat, put it in the film." It could be something similar happened with the crossguard saber.
What I'd be interested in discussing is the "Alternating Current" blade design mentioned in >>12816, or just trakata forms in general. If these were to become widespread (both in the form of lightlances and regular sabers), the effect on lightsaber combat would be interesting. Gungan-style shields might become more widespread since all forms of parrying would become effectively useless, and in enclosed spaces making Ataru-style dodges wouldn't be practical. However, you can't lug shields around everywhere (plus they might be expensive, not really sure on the details there as we never see them outside of TPM), which goes double for Jedi, who are diplomats and dignitaries more than they are dedicated warriors. Because melee combat is now almost exclusively offensive with defense being much less practical, you'd probably see a much bigger focus on length and reach. Lightlances would proliferate, and regular sabers would have fuckhueg blades by default. Saber combat would be much faster, much more boring, and would probably be decided by who got the jump on whom.
Trakata definitely needs to be talked about much more. It's one of the few features of lightsaber combat that has no analogue in the real world. But as I said earlier, it's basically pointless with a lance because the blade is so much less of the weapon's total length to begin with. Trakata is potentially even more important when dual wielding. My idea for dual wielding is to use one lightsaber normally and use the other telekinetically. That way you can get the benefit of having two lightsabers with none of the drawbacks of only having a single-handed grip, but it takes concentration to maintain that.
>all forms of parrying would become effectively useless
I'm not sure about this. It would require some pretty precise timing to turn the lightsaber off and then turn it back on again just as it passes the enemy's blade. Anyone else want to address this? This may be more doable for a Force user than a regular fighter.
>Lightlances would proliferate
This is doubtful given the rarity and expense of the materials needed to make them, even though a lack of parrying would mean reach becomes that much more important.
>I'm not sure about this. It would require some pretty precise timing to turn the lightsaber off and then turn it back on again just as it passes the enemy's blade. Anyone else want to address this? This may be more doable for a Force user than a regular fighter.
I guess I wasn't very clear, as I did mention both Trakata and the AC blade. I was referring to the latter specifically, which activated and deactivated the blade automatically at a high frequency.
>I guess I wasn't very clear, as I did mention both Trakata and the AC blade. I was referring to the latter specifically, which activated and deactivated the blade automatically at a high frequency.
Sounds like how the shields in Star Trek work. I guess that'd be your department, but I remember how in Star Trek Generations Dr. Soran and his Klingon allies infiltrated the Enterprise-D to get their shield frequency so they could blast through it. In spite of this frequency-based component, Star Trek shields usually don't have problems blocking attacks. You'd have to know exactly what frequency they were using, like Soran's people did, in order to phase through a block that way, and it can change at any moment, so regular Trakata may be more effective.
>Because melee combat is now almost exclusively offensive with defense being much less practical, you'd probably see a much bigger focus on length and reach.
In fact, this would probably lead many Jedi to place much less focus on the lightsaber and switch to using Force-augmented gunmanship, like the Gray Paladins. A gun has even more reach than a lance, and you don't need special uber-materials to make your gun operate properly.
>In fact, this would probably lead many Jedi to place much less focus on the lightsaber and switch to using Force-augmented gunmanship
I posted last when I'd been awake for way too long, so I didn't really take everything into account correctly, but it occurs to me now that moving to a gun focus wouldn't be the only alternative. Remember how we decided that the guard shoto is pretty much all aggression? They could switch to those as well. So what you'd have in an environment where lightsaber blades can reliably pass through each other is basically just guard shotos, lances and guns. However, using weapons that encourage aggression would be seen as a violation of the Jedi Code, so the Jedi would be in a very tough spot there.
You have any more Star Trek examples of shields being bypassed by using the right frequency on your weapons? Elite Force had the Infinity Modulator to beat the Borg adaptation, but I don't think that's quite the same thing.
>You have any more Star Trek examples of shields being bypassed by using the right frequency on your weapons? Elite Force had the Infinity Modulator to beat the Borg adaptation, but I don't think that's quite the same thing
That's usually how it worked. The Borg in "The Best of Both Worlds" had rotating-modulation weapons used against them, and in "The Wounded" O'Brien used insider knowledge of how the Rutledge's shields cycled their frequency to transport over. If lightsabers were to work like this though and honestly assuming that you can cycle a lightsaber fast enough to make this effect is a pretty big assumption that I made, I'm not sure how fruitful trying to find the frequency could be, since you could just tie it to a random number generator and make that a moot point.
Your point about guard shoto is a good one, I hadn't considered them. They're certainly a much more economical way to deal with an all-aggression environment compared to lightlances or really, really long traditional sabers.
>Luke became less pure in Return
Good job Kathleen
kathleen's job is to just push sjw shit, this is a decision made by filoni and the rest of the nerds.
No, Lonestar's dad could have had other siblings
So what was Mace Windu?
Tried to explore that here: >>8991
>I'm not sure how fruitful trying to find the frequency could be, since you could just tie it to a random number generator and make that a moot point.
You have to wonder why the Star Trek characters didn't do this more often to ensure that no attacks ever get through. Maybe there are other problems with it, or some method of manipulating the RNG was discovered, but the latter possibility is unlikely because Star Trek tech is advanced enough to have mastered quantum computing, meaning that true random numbers could be generated on demand instead of today's pseudorandom numbers, which can often be gamed. Then again, with enough technobabble you can basically do anything. I didn't remember that bit in The Best of Both Worlds. I need to go back and watch that again. It's been too long. There are also a lot of Star Trek episodes that I haven't seen. But none of them have one other thing that could be used to game the RNG, that being the Force, unless Q is secretly a highly advanced Force user.
On another note, it seems to me that if phasing lightsabers ever got to the point where they could reliably phase through other lightsabers, ranged energy weapons could do this as well, much like phasers and disruptors in Star Trek can. This would lead to a situation where blocking enemy fire with a lightsaber becomes impossible, and thus much of their utility is diminished. Effectively, it would be much like real life, where blocking gunfire with a sword is technically possible but incredibly impractical, short of using a Buster Sword-sized blade, and good luck lifting that. As a result, lightsaber forms like Soresu that focus on defense would die even harder than they did when phasing lightsabers (phase sabers/phase blades?) were introduced, and even my beloved Shien would get kicked to the curb, unless you're using it with a spear. Ataru, Niman and Juyo would be all that remain for regular sabers to use against guns, because they rely on evasion, Force power and speed, but since regular sabers already can't defend against each other anymore, the normal lightsaber may vanish entirely, at least as a main weapon. It may find some use as an assassination tool against armored targets. Ironically, the guard shoto and the lance also don't suffer nearly as much from this because they were already relatively ineffective against guns.
>Your point about guard shoto is a good one, I hadn't considered them.
I've been looking at stuff about Okinawan kobudo, the origin of tonfa techniques, but unlike swords and pole weapons, I have no real-world experience with it so I'm unable to determine how much of it is applicable to the lightsaber. The only things I've found state that tonfas are often used defensively, which wouldn't apply here unless you made them of saber-resistant materials.
I'd also thought that another alternative for the crossguard saber would be to angle the crossguard emitters a little further forward to make it a sai, which is also one of the main Okinawan kobudo weapons, but my knowledge of the sai largely consists of whatever Raphael did on Ninja Turtles. He did sometimes use it in ways that real martial artists would use it, notably to trap swords, which is something a lightsai could do in an environment where lightsabers work as they generally work in Star Wars. It'd be useless if phased lightsaber shenanigans started happening, largely due to its short range. From what I can tell, it's also less adept at countering thrusts than slashes, but I don't know for sure. Both Raphael and Michelangelo have occasionally used tonfas in lieu of their main weapons, as nunchaku are yet another Okinawan weapon. As all three are from the same discipline, maybe someone who knows something about nunchaku or the sai could develop a guard shoto form, as nunchaku attacks' blistering speed and heavy focus on rotation is what you'd be looking for from the guard shoto. The sai is a bit too defensive for its techniques to be used very much for the guard shoto, but you could adapt its techniques to the lightsai on an almost one-for-one basis.
I have a pair of nunchaku, but I never got around to learning to use them, even in vidya. Every time I played a TMNT game I always used Leonardo or Donatello because their weapons have better reach. Same thing with Soul Calibur. I liked playing Mitsurugi and Kilik the most. Maxi is not only the resident chucker there, he's actually from Okinawa, which at that time was known as the Ryukyu Kingdom. One of Taki's weapons is a jitte, a Japanese sai equivalent, while Talim has tonfas as one of her weapon choices and fights with a similar style to what I imagine tonfa wielders use. Maxi is considered good, but risky by the tournament community, and the same with Taki. Talim by contrast is often considered low-tier even by people who specialize in playing as her. Maybe she'd be better if Yoda loaned her a couple of lightsabers to strap to her tonfas.
Also, seeing as sai, tonfa and nunchaku are all from the same style, they have a fair few things in common, so strangely enough, the guard shoto is probably the closest thing to viable lightsaber-chucks you'd ever get in terms of usage, except maybe the lightwhip, which as established earlier is the single best way to kill yourself and everything in a 12-parsec radius with a lightsaber-type weapon.
Shit, I just realized how many references I've made in this post and in general. This thread really does have a lot of autism in it.
>combo potential of Ataru
This should probably be elaborated on even though it's old. Juyo has the most combo potential out of the classic 7 forms, but Ataru can still be used for this, as Yoda shows. Whirling in midair gives you many chances to attack. This would work well with a guard shoto, assuming you had enough room to use Ataru. As Shaak Ti used Ataru, she probably taught some of it to Maris Brood.
>kathleen's job is to just push sjw shit
So is the fan theory that the crossguard saber was made to associate the cross with villainy as a way of attacking problematic white males actually true? It certainly doesn't make any sense from a martial arts perspective, and Disney has the money to hire any number of martial arts experts to work out something that does make sense, so the only reasonable conclusion is that having it make sense wasn't a concern for them.
Here's a third alternative against phased energy weapons: Just go back to using solid melee weapons built from lightsaber-resistant materials. I think at this point it's safe to say that phased energy weapons would pretty well destroy all the main features of Star Wars.
I mean with purple being perfectly in between blue and red.
This should of course be qualified with "if and only if they can reliably phase through other energy weapons." Otherwise you'd have some rando coming in here and going "LOL THIS MEANS STAR TREK WOULD ALWAYS WIN AGAINST STAR WARS!" It's generally agreed that this isn't the case, especially since shields in Star Trek are usually able to block attacks with no problems. It's also generally agreed that nothing will ever make bat'leths viable.
Maybe I'll go look for some footage of tonfa users. Can't promise I'll actually come up with anything, but if someone who's trained in Okinawan kobudo comes in here, it might save some legwork for them.
Rolling for digits on a slow board.
>The majority of duels used weapons that were actually used in war or in self defence situations as well.
Which still precludes certain combinations by definition.
>Armed people generally didn't carry around two swords back then
>People didn't got to war with two swords in hand except for some very rare occasions. Ask yourself why.
I don't have to as Di Grassi says it himself very succintly; "two swords are the strongest combination, short of polearms."
With a polearm or ranged weapon, carrying two sidearms is a hassle, in the same way no one carries two pistols today with their main arm.
The exception to this is when it is feasible to carry two blades as one; the daisho pair, various east Asian combinations, rapier and main gauche, case of rapier, even sword and buckler is this (as a shield is in all ways superior to a buckler, then why carry a buckler? Because it's not as big, duh. Convenience is always a priority, as even today a lot of soldiers will complain about a 100 gram difference in weight, even with modern troop transports and better carrying gear. Hell, do you own a sword with a scabbard? Try walking around with it notice how it gets stuck everywhere. Now double that and have fun.) etc. Which are often noted to be quite potent.
>Nah atleast we used a hammergrip for parries.
How much do you spend time on training your little windmills(moulinette, however it is spelled again), then? It sounds like weak forearms to me.
Since you seemed to imply that a heavier blade would make a difference with a one-handed block, you would be stating that the rest inertia of the mass is enough to compensate. But given that the swords have to be very light at the tips and nimble enough to be worth anything, I can't really see how that little difference would matter. The heaviest sabre I've ever tried was one of those wide-ass lead cutting show sabres, which was waaaaay over-dimensioned. And even that shouldn't be bringing that much rest inertia into the equation as to function as a parry.
>Haha I would love to see that happen some time.
Teach women Fiore and they will get very frisky with you.
>The usual way to learn this is: Get smashed in the face (fencing mask) very hard -> get angry -> get smashed even harder -> get angrier -> get smashed etc.
This. Oh, so this. I specifically teach people breathing techniques, even though there is a general air of hostility towards all things eastern or esoteric, because it's the most effective way of bringing down your heart-rate and getting yourself calm.
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>or light enough that a sufficiently forceful spear thrust will push it out of the way
At which point the shieldsman will go "you have activated my trap card!", since that allows them to close in with your weapon closed off to the side with the shield in between him and the weapon.
The point of a shield isn't to really just block everything head on, it's to close off specific lines while allowing you to sense where he's putting pressure.
I mean, imagine a center-grip shield in your hand. Now imagine you're holding it straight forward, so it's at a 90 degree angle between you and your enemy. Now if he pushes at the side, how are you going to stop it? With just your forearm muscles and your grip? Hell no, he's using his entire body to push forward; all you would accomplish is hurting yourself as he breaks through your best efforts. So you let him push through and move around it. He can't pursue you without pulling back, which is slow, meaning you have an open line to him.
With forearm grip shields it's a little different, but the basic principle remain the same.
>You can tire your opponent out by making him move the shield around a lot.
You can do this with any weapon, though. If shields had this glaring of a flaw, they would not have seen such near-universal use. Also, consider shieldwalls where men would stand for extended periods of time with their shields raised.
> not sure about this. It would require some pretty precise timing to turn the lightsaber off and then turn it back on again just as it passes the enemy's blade. Anyone else want to address this? This may be more doable for a Force user than a regular fighter.
I have a pretty simple solution to that, actually. Just throw in another lightsaber. It wouldn't even have to be slapped onto the side, since the tech for making it a jacket should work as well.
To be honest, if I were a sith I'd just have a lightwhip and a floating discoball of phasing lightsaber blades that I used trakata on all around me.
>Which still precludes certain combinations by definition.
Yes and there are reasons for that.
Two swords carried on the same hip would still be way more convenient then let's say a longsword or two handed sword for example. And it's not that much of a difference if you carried two swords as to sword an dagger/buckler. Both options were carried way more though than two swords, which leads to the conclusion, that people must have considered it more useful and advantageous to carry. If dual swords really gave an advantage, people would have carried it, at least some time.
>Hell, do you own a sword with a scabbard? Try walking around with it notice how it gets stuck everywhere. Now double that and have fun.
1. You get used to it.
2. Have you ever carried a longsword in a scabbard? I would rather carry around 4 rapiers at my hip that one of those huge pieces of bullshit, with it's huge grip an guard, hanging around so you'll have a chance to actually pull it out of it's scabbard.
3. This could be solved by carrying both on the same hip. Sure you can't draw both at the same time, but draw speed never seemed to be an issue in European sword culture, especially not with rapiers and longswords. Note how there isn't even a single solution offered in European culture for this problem, a culture mind you, that even offered chains on the coat of plates for some time in case you dropped your sword or dagger.
>It sounds like weak forearms to me.
If that was the case, using heavier weapons wouldn't exactly help, would it?
I would consider the sabres of the time and the ones we use already on the lighter side of one handed weapons, single sticks, due to being made of wood, are even lighter, and way to thin single sticks made of willow are way to light, which leads to the problems i mentioned. Yes they are very fast and nimble, but that's of no use at a certain point, when your opponent puts the pressure on you with a adequately weighted weapon.
Just like there are weapons that are to heavy to be of use, there are weapons that are to light, and this is not only true for offence, but for defence as well.
>Teach women Fiore and they will get very frisky with you.
I am tall and therefore also heavy, people generally don't want to go into ringen with me. And I grew tired of people making fools of themselves trying to pommel strike me from way out of adequate measure, so Fiore wouln't be among the first longsword lessons I'd give. I'll stay with I.33 when it comes to cuddling.
Well, from what I've been reading, the tonfa, sai and nunchaku are all very complex and difficult to learn, often being restricted to black belt students. The tonfa is the most defensive of the three, while nunchaku are the most offensive because you can't really block with a non-rigid weapon unless you get the enemy's weapon entangled in it, which is very difficult with nunchaku. In many ways, the tonfa is a fist weapon, as most of its stances and movements are taken directly from hand-to-hand combat. Pretty much the only thing that separates it from a fist weapon is its ability to be spun. But the tonfa is probably also the most complex of the three despite the chaotic motions of nunchaku, because of its grip and its ability to seamlessly transition between defending and numerous modes of attack.
Some police forces in real life have used tonfa and nunchaku as nonlethal weapons. The PR-24 side-handle baton was a fairly common police weapon 2-3 decades ago, and it was often used to apply joint locks and other grappling techniques, but it fell out of favor because it takes up more space than a regular baton. The Orcutt nunchuk, on the other hand, never really became a police mainstay because it lacks defense. As far as applying nunchaku techniques to a lightsaber goes, anyone can see that most of them are unusable with a guard shoto regardless of the similarly offensive bent because they require you to spin in many directions, but additionally, quite a few nunchaku users incorporate many kicks into their style, which is something I'd never do against a lightsaber even though it was occasionally done in the movies, and rarely do anyway because kicks throw you off balance. I guess shifting your weight like that can aid with spinning the nunchaku, but a lightsaber blade has no weight, so you gain less from it. I'm not sure about using kicks with tonfa yet, but that fact alone should make them less useful. The sai was never seriously considered as a police weapon because of its lethality, as if police need a lethal weapon, they'll just pull their gat. Sai can be used to parry, but the tonfa is better for this and spins more readily.
Ironically, a pair of lightsai may be a good choice for a new standard Jedi weapon because it's not too much of a departure from what they already know, but it offers new capabilities, many of which are defensive, and they make excellent throwing weapons for the telekinetically inclined. Some sources claim that the sai was rarely used to defend, instead being more of a surprise weapon, and being a lightsaber weapon lends itself to this as well. You could make a much improved version of Jar'Kai with dual lightsai. Put this in the hands of one of the talented multi-saber duelists like Ahsoka and I think you'd see a dramatic increase in overall effectiveness. Of course, the choice between a lightsai and a guard shoto also heavily involves the question of whether you make the guard shoto out of lightsaber-resistant materials. The tonfa can parry if you do that, but unless you intend to block blaster bolts with the hilt, it's going to be worse at dealing with guns than a lightsai, which can have its middle blade be just as long as a regular saber because it's weightless, and it can be used like a regular saber as well. So we've basically shunted sai and nunchaku into different categories for the purposes of lightsabers, sai into a separate weapon style and nunchaku into something you never bother with if you know what's good for you. I'm still going to look into this more, but I thought I'd post about what I've found so far. Also, the idea of using kicks with a tonfa style made me think of how in Metal Gear Rising, Raiden frequently attaches his sword to his feet and uses kicks to slash with it. That reminds me of Lord Nyax from the NJO books. Remember that guy? The one who's covered in lightsabers? That'd be a hell of a style to work out. It'd probably consist mostly of sanic spinning into everything at sanic speed, which is basically what Jar'Kai does anyway.
>there is a general air of hostility towards all things eastern or esoteric
Some HEMA practitioners are just as bad as weebs. The kind of mentality they exhibit is going to lead to them getting rekt because they assumed any knowledge that came from "the other guys" couldn't possibly have any value and neglected to learn it, when it was actually very important.
>Now if he pushes at the side, how are you going to stop it?
You wouldn't push at the side. You'd push at the top and bottom of the shield, because the arm is going sideways and you're trying to get around it.
One thing I've noticed when watching tonfa videos is how rapidly the tonfa can change direction. This is a good thing because spinning a guard shoto like a helicopter probably isn't going to be the best tactic. Many tonfa moves have the tonfa twirled 360 degrees, and if you do this while your arm is oriented parallel to the ground, you'll hit yourself with your own attack. To avoid this and keep the opponent off balance, you'd often be doing feints, like a big slash to the side that ends with a quick rotation to strike from the top. The guard shoto can be dangerous to the user, much like the saberstaff, but in return for this it offers options that no other saber variant has, and the saberstaff is harder to thrust with and generally less versatile than either the guard shoto or the regular lightsaber, as admitted by Sith Blademaster Kas'im, one of the foremost specialists in it. However, the saberstaff is much better against blasters.
Also, I never realized how popular the tonfa actually is before:
To be honest, tonfas are pretty badass.
>Two swords carried on the same hip would still be way more convenient then let's say a longsword or two handed sword for example.
You'd think so, but then you realize people rarely carried larger swords on their belts, because of the weight. You either carried them like a polearm or had them on your horse. Same thing with two swords; there's no way to comfortably have that much weight swinging off of your hip.
>Have you ever carried a longsword in a scabbard? I would rather carry around 4 rapiers at my hip that one of those huge pieces of bullshit
I have, actuallyNot four rapiers, though. Only have the one. Our group tends to run shows by the town square and I lug around most of my gear to show off there and for many years I had to walk all the way there with the stuff strapped on.
And you do realize rapiers are the same length and weight, right? The only real difference is the hilt dimensions.
But one of the main points is to find where on the longswords sheath you have it on your hip. If you have it through your belt and snug against your body, it can be kind of wherever. But if you have a beltloop or a frog and it's hanging kind of freely, then it becomes essential that you find the point of balance where it's hanging freely without dipping too much in any direction and sort of sways with you as you walk.
>This could be solved by carrying both on the same hip.
Which is what I was actually originally referring to as a problem. When you have that much steel on one hip, it throws off your balance and stride. One sword is still within the bounds of reason, like how swords can be swung around because they're just below the weight limit and once you get over that threshold the weapons seem to become inordinately clumsy(at least without massively lengthening the hilt, like with greatswords or nagamaki etc.)
Kind of the same thing here. Note how most of the east Asian paired weapons are pretty small or very light, for example. Even in rapier, it's commonly called a "case of rapiers" because carrying two swords freely is a pain in the fucking ass.
And fffffuuuuuuuck on opposite hips with two sheaths; even worse. Also, adding this as an addendum of how lightsabers fix everything wrong with dual wielding; no hassle with carrying two fucking swords.
>Note how there isn't even a single solution offered in European culture for this problem
I've long argued that Fiore's posta coda di longa can be used with a quick draw, especially since Italian longswords tended to be on the shorter side, blade-wise. https://youtu.be/Cob3JMmtctY?t=1m1s
Especially since his one-handed sword techniques so heavily favor the backhand parry from it, as if your were drawing your sword.
But generally, that's what the dagger was for. Also, Fiore has techniques for when your sword is sheathed, but those are not in the belt but carried in the hand with the point up, leaning against the shoulder. I can't find pictures right now, though. Sorry.
>there are weapons that are to[sic] light
Just had a lesson yesterday and I tried it again and worked fine. We took half a broom handle with negligible weight and tried out how far towards the tip that parrying was fine. Mind defining what exactly you mean to be the weak here? By weak, I'm speaking of specifically the top half since I do primarily longsword and Strong/Weak divide started out quite simple. But in looking into different sword manuals, I note that the definitions vary.
If by weak you mean the top third/fourth of the sword, near the tip, then I understand completely what you mean. But, you never ever try to push or defend strongly with the tip, anyhow. Even with a longsword where you have more leverage, you simply sense what the other is doing with the top third/fourth, since any strong push against his weapon will leave you open to oben-abnehmen or durchwechseln. Parrying with anything below the point of percussion is perfectly fine regardless of weapon weight is my conclusion and I'll stick to it.
Certainly, those are the most dramatic of his measures, but Fiore boasted just as much about how many arms he had broken. Besides, the simplest technique he ever shows is best; if you see his elbow, just push it a little and ta—da!, you've got him turned 180 degrees and now you can hit him in the back of the skull and get disqualified for unsportsmanlike behavior :V
Seriously, if you see someone doing the "chicken wings", just push his elbow lightly and he will spin around like a ballerina. It's hilarious, I always slap them on the butt with the flat when I do it to complete the humiliation.
>nunchaku sword/ guard shoto
Reminds me of Tales of Phantasia. https://youtu.be/CsULnhql6O4?t=10m7s
We're heading towards hunga munga territory, or that meme with Kylo Ren's lightsaber being all kinds of weird shapes a few years back.
>Raiden frequently attaches his sword to his feet and uses kicks to slash with it.
The biggest problem with that is, that you need to be stable to cut through something. The initial speed and force behind those attacks would be awesome, but you couldn't work in a bind or cut through anything efficiently.
>Lord Nyax from the NJO books. Remember that guy? The one who's covered in lightsabers?
Never heard of him, but reminds me of that black guy from Nurutu who for one time covered himself in swords and jumped around like a spaz.
>Some HEMA practitioners are just as bad as weebs
Once, in a tournament, I did a kiai. Well, basically I just unexpectedly did a really loud yell and then when he was confused for a moment, I hit him on the hand. A cheap shot, but it worked. The judges came after the match and told me to not do it again, since it was against the rules. TOO MUCH LIKE KENDO; UUUGHHHH; IT BURNS! T. Hema
>You'd push at the top and bottom of the shield
And the wrist rotates to work with that. The shield and buckler can be used in a 360 degree radius. Though when it's above or below, you don't step around so much as you press it down or out of the way and then bind their weapon to work forward.
Iirc Liegniczer's first or second play with sword and buckler uses one like that. Been a while.
Meant tonfa, derp. And this is the part where he actually uses it properly.
You have any training with them? To me, they were always one of those esoteric weapons I never really became familiar with.
It occurs to me that if you want a better option to deal with blasters with the guard shoto, you can just switch your grip to hold them like normal lightsabers. This is tough in the middle of a firefight, but if you know people with blasters are coming through that Force precognition, you'll have enough time to switch. Certain odd angles with a tonfa grip can also do this, but it's unclear how much kinetic energy blaster bolts pack. If they're made of plasma as many theorize, they're still massive particles and will carry some amount of momentum, which the tonfa grip is ill-suited to deflect.
>The biggest problem with that is, that you need to be stable to cut through something.
You could do superficial Soresu-style cuts with a sword attached to the feet, but that's about it unless the enemy does something dumb.
>Though when it's above or below, you don't step around so much as you press it down or out of the way and then bind their weapon to work forward.
So basically just hook the shield and grab it away, then. Aside from leading your grip with the other hand or slashing at the legs or head, which is kind of a crapshoot, this seems to be the only reliable tactic to deal with shields. I think a lightsai or crossguard lightlance have about as many blades as you can without going into meme territory.
>I think a lightsai or crossguard lightlance have about as many blades as you can without going into meme territory.
Bit of a disconnect before this sentence, but eh.
If you really want to go full hunga munga, what could anyone do against a shield covered in lightsabers, other than get a longer lance and hook the shield? Having 2 or 3 dozen sabers fastened to the front of your shield could be absurdly powerful, especially with extended blades, and the normal loss of power that happens with an extended blade can be alleviated because the shield offers you ample space to store a heavy-duty battery pack. I guess if you wanted to, you could put that many sabers on the end of a polearm and add a counterweight to the other end to maintain balance, but it'd still be so heavy that pretty much all you could do with it would be to just point it straight forward.
Hold on though. Rey uses Kylo Ren's light saber in TLJ, and it still burns red. Ren activates the blue saber with his force powers and it still burns blue.
don't ask me man, i'm not the moron who thought it was a better idea than rank/color preference and synthetic crystals.
i imagine the blades wouldn't change right then and there, but if they continued to use them, they would probably change (though i feel the crossguard saber in rey's hands would stay red since she's arguably neutral more than anything else).
I'm kind of down with the idea of light sabers being a concentration of a user's force power. It would explain why non force users pretty much never use them, despite them being incredibly useful tools. The thing is, you can't go introducing rules like that now, after everything that has been established. The second Han picked up Luke's saber in ESB, that possibility was off the table.
OK, back to the lance since that's pretty much all I can say about the guard shoto without spending years training to use a tonfa. Anyone else who knows more about the tonfa than I do (which isn't hard) can pick up from there. How many lightlance-specific forms could there be? The aggressive form I outlined above is based on Form V despite being intended to be a "basic" form, so a real Form I equivalent could be built. The idea that it's supposed to be basic is rooted in the idea that Form V should be the basic sword form, which in turn is rooted in the whole Jedi Order being based on the samurai, since katana bladework is close to either Form V variant, with the draw cuts being more Shien-style and power attacks being incorporated into Djem So. Form IV could be adapted to the spear, but there may not be enough difference from Ataru to call it its own form. So an actual third form would be heavily slashing-based, and some resources have been posted in here for that. There are going to be fewer possibilities for spear forms than sword forms simply because the spear is a long weapon and this means you don't have as much room for bladework, and you also emphasize different things anyway, so there is no Form II analogue because every spear discipline has elements of it due to its length, and no Form III equivalent because you can't move a spear like that. Some naginatajutsu techniques would work here, but this alone isn't going to be enough for a robust style.
>It would explain why non force users pretty much never use them, despite them being incredibly useful tools.
Why not just say it's because the weightless blade makes them so unintuitive to use unless you have the Force? With a physical blade, you can "feel" the blade as you swing it around, getting a rough sense of how long it is, where the tip is at a given moment, etc. Because a saber blade is essentially weightless you can't nearly as good a "feel" for it unless you're looking right at it, making it an awkward and unwieldy weapon unless you have a mystical, precognitive power. Grievous can get away with it because he's a cyborg. Because the digitized parts of his brain have precise knowledge of where each arm is, the precise angle of each joint, he can unconsciously visualize where the blades at any given moment, which works as an analogue to the Force precognition to prevent him from accidentally gutting himself. Also, you could use the fact that while you don't need to be Jedi to turn a saber on and make a few cautious swings, you need to be Force-sensitive in order to align the crystal and construct a lightsaber.
>Form III equivalent
What about a different "defensive" style, focused more on using the phrik/cortosis shaft to deflect blaster bolts instead of exclusively the blade?
>What about a different "defensive" style, focused more on using the phrik/cortosis shaft to deflect blaster bolts instead of exclusively the blade?
This is tough on the shaft. That's why I'm enchanted by the idea of making a crossguard lightlance. That's my favorite lightlance idea so far in this thread, because it solves so many of its problems. You can make the shaft resist lightsabers and blaster bolts to a point, but it'll wear down eventually if it's used haphazardly. In my opinion, this would include using the shaft to block blasters given that blasters put out a high volume of fire and are much more common than lightsabers, and finding saber-resistant materials to repair your lance with is going to be a bitch. Putting two extra blades at the tip jutting out to the side lets you keep enemy weapons of all kinds from hitting the shaft, thus reducing the amount of repairs you'll need. It also gives you more attack options and the ability to grab away saber-resistant physical shields.
Also, not only does it stop weapons in general more reliably, it's probably the single best way of deflecting blaster bolts with a lance, apart from the hunga munga lance. You no longer have to awkwardly angle it upward so the butt end touches the ground to get the most lightsaber surface area in front of you. You can just have the side blades oriented parallel to the ground and rotate the lance or torque it up and down at speed like a boss, and those pesky Mandalorians and Dark Troopers can't even touch you anymore. I'd like to hear from Jediposter and HEMA Sith about this, because it seems like it has basically no downsides. There's a Japanese yari variant somewhat like this called the jumonji yari, but it only has one extra prong.
Although it may not be an ideal weapon for none force users, you'd think just a light saber's ability to cut through things would make it an incredibly useful tool to have around.
It may be, but there's still the matter of how to acquire one. You need to ask a Force-sensitive to build one for you, and if the crystal ever gets knocked out of alignment you'd need him again to fix it. Seeing as the Jedi would balk at you for asking to mass-produce something that's meant to be sacred and personal to each Jedi, and the Sith (if you could find one) would slay you for your insolence, that wouldn't be an easy task.
I came up with a very odd idea for the crossguard lightlance that I've never seen on any polearm before, and I should probably post it before anyone responds to anything else about the weapon because this idea changes its whole dynamic. I'm considering a tonfa-like side-mounted handle at some point along the shaft to make rotating it easier. This would allow it to defeat a multitude of threats. For more common situations where the enemy uses a normal saber or multiple sabers, you can just use your regular lance skills and you'll probably win, unless you're up against one of the strongest Force users around. You have better leverage, and with the crossguard lightlance, you actually have one more blade than a dual saber user does. The only exception is if they're using two crossguard sabers or lightsai. Either way, you'll probably have more total blade length unless you're up against Grievous, or perhaps Kreia. But when the enemy has a crossguard-less spear? This is where it starts to get interesting. Rotate the crossguard to knock it out of the way while you're stabbing him at the same time. This motion will look like a screw. You could theoretically do this screw attack against almost any opponent.
Similar motions work in other situations. Enemy has a shield? Rotate the crossguard to bypass it, rotate it back when it's behind the shield and end him with the crossguard or the tip, whichever is more convenient. Enemy has a guard shoto pair? You can rotate the crossguard to bypass just about any defense they can put up, and they'll never get close enough to you to utilize its offense. Enemy has a blaster? Block his shots with the crossguard, which is made even easier than normal by the tonfa handle. If you're really good, you may hit him with the deflection and not have to do anything more. My only real question is where the side handle should be attached so that it doesn't interrupt normal spear techniques. I may not be able to use a tonfa well, but I can still swipe concepts from it in order to screw attack everything for the win. I shudder to think what would have happened if Grievous had used two of these instead of four normal sabers.
There's even more. Enemy gets past your guard somehow? Pull the lance back and attack from behind with the crossguard. You don't even have to do draw cuts anymore. Going to have to make some more revisions. My preliminary thinking for a slashing-based style is that the spearhead should mostly be kept within a 120-degree arc in front of you even against multiple opponents, because if it's too far outside that, any strike will be too telegraphed to succeed. But with the crossguard lightlance, you can keep a tighter focus in front of you and repel many more attacks from many more angles with less movement.
Also, what you guys were saying above about it being basically impossible to dodge or jump over a spear thrust is much more true in the case of a crossguard thrust, especially when directed at the legs, but also in general. It's doable if your opponent has a regular spear, but against this, even I wouldn't recommend it. In this case, if you don't parry, or else have saber-resistant armor, a personal shield generator or both, you're done. Honestly, it's hard to see what could be done about any attack from the crossguard lightlance unless both fighters have one. If you try to parry a screw attack with a sword, saberstaff or normal lightlance, it's likely to fail because the crossguard rotates around nearly any defense.
To me, the side-handle crossguard lightlance seems to upend the orthodox methods of spear fighting. Whereas HEMAfag favors a style focused on slashing with relatively little body movement, and I favor a style focused on thrusting with somewhat more body movement, this seems to combine the two. It wouldn't have much body movement, but thrusting would be the main attack due to it being possible to perform a Meyer-style straight parry by rotating the crossguard, or to get past an enemy's weapon outright. Still, even with the screw attack available there's room to slash. I hope I'm not missing anything major that would lead to the weapon not being viable. It needs feedback like mad from martial artists and writers to fully develop its potential.
You could get even more ludicrous by adding one or more additional side handles, or making the weapon a double-ender, but you'd lose thrusting power due to having to worry about the second set of blades. You could also start adding even more than 3 blades, such as an additional crossguard or a multi-bladed crossguard, but I don't think that'd be very useful. An additional crossguard would hamper thrusting capability, and more blades just gives opponents more things they can use to block the rest of your weapon. The crossguard's added defense and attacks, including the screw attack, are the weapon's main advantages over the normal lightlance, and the more blades you add, the more likely it can be blocked.
I don't know why we haven't seen more weapons like this in real life. The trident would be of comparable weight to a weapon like this where the crossguard is made of a solid blade, but is arguably less useful since it can't stab as precisely as a crossguard weapon and can't work around shields. Anyone have any insights on this?
>giving a shit about soy wars in 2018
Imagine being this much of a faggot.
This poster is demonstrating a poor attempt at the Dun Moch technique, so poor it could only have been done by a cuckchan faggot who slurps hiroshimoot's AIDS-infested tadger every day. The proper counter to this is to tell them to kill themselves and go back to cuckchan, in that order.
does anyone like the idea of one single blade lightsaber with two overlapping colors or more?
Eh, it seems a bit gimmicky. Not nearly as much as helicopter sabers but still a bit tacky.
I mean like, maybe a blue lightsaber with a green afterglow, or a green one with a blue afterglow, or white with blue glow, or blue with purple glow, or whatever. shouldn't all lightsaber users technically always have their saber change automatically according to how they feel?
>turns darker and more intense
>get really mad
>turns red for a while
>think really hard
>defend someone or fight for a good cause
I don't know, maybe different colors would change for different people depending on different actions?
here I make what you say
Interesting concept, and I believe how Lucas, or someone in Lucasfilm, originally conceived of lightsabers working–in an early storyboarding of RotJ, Luke's lightsaber is shown to turn red when held and activated by Darth Vader. But that's a very early concept, and doesn't really translate into the way lightsabers are known to work now. The color of the blade is denoted by the properties of the focusing crystal, not emotional makeup.
>blue lightsaber with a green afterglow, or a green one with a blue afterglow, or white with blue glow, or blue with purple glow, or whatever.
I think we see this to a lesser degree in the EU, although the sabers in question are usually described of being different shades of the base color rather than being mixed. Alema Rar's fuck off, it's the only one I remember from the top of my head blade, for instance, was described as a blue so deep it was almost black.
oh wow that's interesting.
when the jedi went to go to a rave party the lightsaber could turn into a swirling rainbow mode. UNTS UNTS UNTS UNTS UNTS BRP BRP BRP BRP OOMS OOMS OOMS
This is why you shouldn't buy from the Jawas, folks.
>mfw I just realized that a crossguard lance would look a lot like this except with a much longer tonfa-handled shaft in place of the second set of blades
So wait, if the crossguard saber represents the forces of homophobia, misogyny and GamerGate and the gay pride saber is just two of them glued together at the pommel, what does that make the crossguard lance? If I make the blades smaller than the ones on the gay pride saber to make it less difficult to use in confined spaces, is it still gay?
it's only gay if you bend over and activate it believe it is. admiral ackbar says it all the time. ITS A TRAP. but only if you allow yourself to think it is. a moment later and the death star blew up. it was a beneficial and good interaction and therefor- not gay. traps are like a professionally crafted lightsaber. beautiful, tight, and humming with good vibrations. everyone will hate you, but it will only be because you made the better choice.
…what is this I don't even…Note to self: Get rid of the rainbow blades too.
I was thinking more about the pros and cons of different styles of spear fighting, more with regards to real life than fiction, and especially with regards to what HEMAfag said. Part of the reason I like to move around is because that's what you need to do against multiple opponents. Not moving around much may work against a single opponent, but that's a death sentence when there's more than one enemy, so I think it's best to get in the habit of doing it against everyone. It opens up more attack options anyway. I think one of the biggest reasons for low-movement spear styles is the fact that historical spearmen were trained primarily to operate in formation. When you've got your buddies next to you, you don't have much room to move, but you don't need to move as much because their spears are backing you up.
There's a dichotomy between hard and soft styles in unarmed martial arts. They might also be called solid and fluid styles. Maybe it'd be better to try to escape from that dichotomy. A solid style is built on muscle and optimizing for power attacks, while a fluid style is built on skill and often uses strategically aimed attacks and takedowns. You could apply this to spears as well. In spear fighting, a solid style won't move around much because that's a solid's nature, while a fluid style will more readily move, and in my conception, actively seek to attack. However, a fluid style should be able to flow not only between attacks, but between attacking and defending. There's something to be said for taking out your opponents quickly if you're fighting more than one because you have to move more and will get tired faster than the group that doesn't have to move as much, but even an idiot can tell you that you can't rely only on offense when you're up against a spear column. You could make a style that's both fluid and defensive, but you could also incorporate more slashes to effectively keep multiple opponents at bay, or strike a balance between offense and defense. Of course, this is assuming that you can't just run away. If you don't absolutely have to fight, it's often better to flee, especially when you're alone against a gang of spearmen.
I'm not sure how much the crossguard can compensate for less movement, or work with greater amounts of movement, because I've never seen any polearms with one before, except the tsukubo, which is all crossguard and no point. The closest thing I've found is the Ancient Spear from Zelda: Breath of the Wild, which oddly enough, and especially oddly for the franchise that it's in, is the hard light equivalent of a lightspear, made with advanced Sheikah tech. It has a crossguard, but it's not perpendicular to the point and only the front part of it is bladed, meaning you can't do a pull attack. Hard light melee weapons have been in a number of stories, and they don't have the infinite cutting edge property of a lightsaber, but they retain the weightless blade.
Need more discussion of Force-user hunters. Out of all the ones we've seen, I think my favorites have to be the Knighthunters, just because of their weapon choices and their badass armor. If you reinforced their armor with phrik and installed exoskeleton functionality into it, you probably couldn't do better for the role they were created for. They can fight normal troops perfectly well too. If a Force-sensitive individual used a kit like that, they'd basically be a massively improved Shadowtrooper, but with a kit like that, they barely even need the Force, as it's hard to see any real weaknesses in it. A lightlance would be a good addition to it, but the lack of one isn't a deal-breaking point against the Knighthunters. For extra fun, give them a jetpack.
Also, I completely forgot about charrics in >>10040. They crush Force users hard, and also do well against other threats. Charrics rule, and so does basically everything else the Chiss ever built. If all the Mandalorians were carrying charrics during the Mandalorian Wars, Mandalore poster would stand a very respectable chance of getting his way. Same thing if Jango had one when he was fighting Mace. Charrics have pretty much all the benefits of flamethrowers with few of the drawbacks. Maybe the fact that the Mandos didn't all have charrics because the Chiss hadn't been contacted yet is one more of those odd contrivances the Force sets up to prevent the Jedi from getting their shit wrecked by a Fett, Cassus Fett in this case.
Also also, apparently there are hard-light melee weapons in Star Wars: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Phase-knife
Well, Han Solo uses Luke's old saber to cut open his tauntaun in ESB, and it's not shown to change color at all.
Either he was meant to have the same color code as Luke, or this idea just came up for the ROTJ.
my ultrasaber just crapped out on me. Any suggestions for where to buy? Australian, so shipping will be a pain
Only places I ever use are ebay and Ultrasabers.com. I heard the latter was having a 15% off sale during May. So it should be cheaper this time around. Ebay might be a bit cheaper though if you don't mind a used product.
What's your budget like? I've heard that some of the custom shops have better quality than ultrasaber, but they'll generally cost you an arm and a leg…and come to think of it, I'm not sure if they'll ship to emuland or not.
You should try to repair it instead of buying a new one.
pretty flexible, but i only really use it for sparring with a mate (country town so no star wars stuff to go to). Got an ultra to see if i would even use it.
It probably is an easy fix but i have no clue. The red chord that attaches to the battery pack is disconnected, i can tape it there and it still works but every hit jolts it off. I guess i could solder it but i dont have any equipment.
Sounds like a job for several layers of electrical tape. But if you're going to get something on eBay, consider getting a cheap soldering iron. It'd be less expensive than buying a new Ultrasaber, let alone a custom job.
I'm bumping this thread in honor of Disney's latest putrid shitfest of social justice garbage. Maybe someone with martial arts knowledge will come (or return) here to laugh at the new movie's inevitable failure and give some new input. I'm hoping for critique on the crossguard lightlance concept, though I still need to do some work on incorporating it into what I've made so far, which hasn't happened because I've been busy with other things.
I thought about possible ways of creating a lightsaber axe variant without phase-knife technology. You could make a lightaxe work without lightsaber-resistant materials if you did it by having a lightsaber run up most of the length of the weapon, stopping right below the axe head, which would be made out of several short lightsabers in a row perpendicular to the grip. Obviously if you have phrik or some such material, it works even better. You could do a poleaxe version as well, which is more towards my polearm focus, but making a poleaxe blade this way is more or less the same as making a crossguard. I've never had any axe training, so I can't say much about it.
So what would be the application of a lightaxe? As I understand it the advantage of an axe is the extra momentum you get from the head, but with lightsabers blades being mostly weightlessness you don't have that anymore. I suppose if the enemy had Gungan type energy shields, or regular shields with a phrik edge, you could use the axe head as a hook, but as you said the crossguard lance can do the same thing.
I've been thinking about this. There are three main kinds of axes: giant battle axes, single-handed axes, and tomahawk-type axes meant for throwing. Sometimes the single-handers can be thrown, but they're less accurate than the ones specifically designed for throwing. However, if you have the Force, the single-handers become an excellent throwing weapon. They may be the best throwing weapon out of anything in the thread so far because they're more usable in melee than the saberstaff, let alone the sabercopter or stuff like >>11960.
The giant battle axes in this case would just be a crossguard lance without the tip, meaning if you do that, you should just build a crossguard lance instead.
I had more thoughts just as I pressed the post button on my last one. If you did a long version of a lightaxe that wasn't a full-sized polearm, it could be like a bardiche. The bardiche has an axe-like head and is one of the shortest polearms, measuring only about 5 feet long. It blurs the line between polearms and axes. A bardiche would be better for slashing, making it distinct from a lance. Personally I'd still pick the full-sized lance due to its range, but the bardiche is probably a workable option. I think all lightaxes should adopt a cross configuration for the blades. There's no reason not to have a lightspear point at the end of your axe because the only weight penalty you pay is for the emitter, not the blade. Real-world axes and poleaxes often include a stabbing point at the business end of the shaft in addition to the axe head. This is the basis for the halberd, one of the most widely used polearms. It would also make the lightaxe an even better throwing weapon.
>As I understand it the advantage of an axe is the extra momentum you get from the head, but with lightsabers blades being mostly weightlessness you don't have that anymore.
If you want to do this, you can mount a weight at the top of the shaft and have the lightsaber blades jutting out from it. Anything flat enough to mount lightsabers on will do for this purpose, meaning that if your lightsaber emitters are damaged, you can remove them from the weight and use it as a warhammer. This only works well if it's made of lightsaber-resistant materials. You could also make a polehammer lightsaber this way. Polehammers aren't stabbing implements though, and the polearm training I have didn't cover them because polehammers (and bashing weapons in general) seem to be very rare in Eastern martial arts. It should be noted that unless your lightaxe is tomahawk-sized, it's going to lose the concealability of a normal lightsaber just like a lance will, unless it's a takedown weapon. Subtlety is what we often see Force users striving for. The Jedi are heavily based on samurai, but they tend to operate more like ninjas. Samurai sometimes operated as ninjas and vice versa, but they carried different weapons when they switched roles, whereas we don't see Jedi doing this for the most part.
Maybe a few more words about the lightaxe are in order. One advantage the axe has is that its weight distribution is sword-like because the axe head is made of lightsaber blades, meaning all lightsaber forms can be done with it, but you have to be careful not to hit yourself with the axe head depending on how long its blades are. If you go with the weighted lightaxe design, Djem So becomes the best form to use with it by far because you can bash right through most defenses. For the non-weighted design, Ataru is much better than it normally is for the same reason the lightaxe is a good throwing weapon. You might even say that Ataru makes the user themselves into a throwing weapon.
Neat, looks like the bump limit now is 500.
I decided I'd go ahead and put some work into the cross lance, but we're getting into some advanced maneuvers here because most of the basics have been outlined by either Jediposter, HEMA Sith or me, so it's harder to come up with original stuff. No idea when I'll be finished with this.
Would something like this be a good idea? Or maybe just a one-bladed version.
Ctrl+F "lightlance" in this thread friend, you'll find quite a bit of discussion on a very similar weapon. Just with two crossblades rather than one.
I've been attempting to work up the fundamentals of a crossguard lightlance, which is what you posted except with an additional blade sticking out opposite the first crossblade. What you have there is a lightsaber version of a jumonji yari. I wish the other guys in the thread who talked about HEMA would come back and help with this.
Another note since this is a slow board and you might not be back for a while going on that expectation: You can get what you have there with a crossguard lightlance just by setting up your emitters to work separately and turning one of your two crossblade emitters off. What you've got is a serviceable weapon, but without the second crossblade I don't think it can reach it's full potential. There are times when you might want to turn one or more of the blades off independently though. If you didn't know, the name for that is Trakata, and I think it works much better with the cross lance than with the regular one.
Since Nintendo just did something people have been memeing about for over a decade and put Ridley in Smash 5, I thought we should talk about what it would be like if Meta Ridley was covered in lightsabers, because I'm pretty sure it doesn't get more outrageous than that. Also, since they announced a new Jedi game at E3, speculate on what the lightsaber combat in that will be like or something. Of course since this is Disney Wars we're talking about, it's
probably going to guaranteed to be a pile of shit.
It will be a generic Ass Creed-style action game based on countering large numbers of enemies, with the occasional quicktime event.
I can honestly see this being real. It'll probably be a downgrade in terms of saber mechanics from The Force Unleashed, which was already a downgrade from Jedi Knight. I doubt they'll even have the decency to include light and heavy attacks because Press X to Lightsaber Battle seems like exactly the kind of thing that would sell to normalfag retards, but after TLJ and Soylo I don't know if they're even still interested in Star Wars. I'd say they should just hand it over to Platinum if they want a decent game, but Platinum has shown that they're not as infallible as they were thought to be when Metal Gear Rising came out. Still, Platinum at its worst is better than anything EA has done with the Star Wars license.
>Metal Gear Rising as a Star Wars game
cut back on some of the gonzo anime bullshit, and you've got yourself a pretty good lightsaber game alas, we'll never get another jedi knight…and this fact hurts my soul for some reason
They could go even harder on gonzo anime bullshit if they wanted because the Star Wars setting has magic, whereas the Metal Gear universe is sort of ambiguous about whether there's any actual paranormal stuff going on or if it's just hypnotic suggestions, hallucinations and such. MGR ironically has the lowest amount of that out of any Metal Gear game except MG1 and MG2. The Force Unleashed already went the CUHRAYZEE route. The problem for gameplay is that the harder you go on Force power, the less reason you have to bother with a lightsaber. In many people's original conception, masters like Yoda and Palpatine didn't use lightsabers because of that, and we never see them doing it in the original trilogy. It's only in the prequels that we saw them fight with lightsabers.
Anon I think you fugged up a bit about Form 5
Djem So is pretty complicated, given that it contains two technical parts.
>there's a dexterity half
<and a strength half
>dexterity half tends to encompass most of the defensive maneuvers of Djem So, focusing on quickly and precisely catching and shunting enemy blades away to make room for counterattacks
>the best example of the dexterity half in common Djem So is the Fluid Riposte, a quick parry followed up by a near-instant counterattack
>the dexterity half trades powerful hits for quick but precise hits, think of it like Soresu in terms of precision and speed but it's not nearly as conservative with it's movements, causing it to tire yourself out, and Soresu doesn't leave room to counterattack
Cont. in next post.
<the strength half of Djem So covers most of it's offensive maneuvers, focusing on knocking the opponent off balance and hammering them into the ground
<an example of a defensive strength maneuver would look like this
>opponent swings at you
>engage blade in a lock
>shove enemy aside
<it'd look like that before getting followed up by the baseball swings you described
<an example of an offensive strength Djem So move would be the Falling Avalanche, a downward chop that channels all of your body's weight into a massive armor-splitting cleave
<the falling avalanche sums up strength based Djem So very well, extremely powerful but that strength trades some precision and lots of agility for sheer power.
To sum things up
>dexterity Djem So is mostly defensive, focusing on precision and speed while sacrificing power
<strength Djem So is mostly offensive, focusing on generating power while sacrificing some precision and lots of lots of agility
I'm basing this on descriptions in books like the Jedi Path and RoTS novelization and somewhat on Hayden's RoTS choreography
Not to derail the topic, but why can't the lazy fucks behind SWTOR add Krayt Dragons into the game? That was the only reason I bothered to play that shit, thinking that maybe someday they'd add one as a world boss.
>no land nessie worldboss
why live anons
>Wonder earlier in the day about tactics for 1-hand lightspear + physical shield
>Come to thread and find someone else bumped it
My spear training in this area is lacking because Eastern styles don't really cover it, or shields in general. I'm still working on the 2-hand crossguard stuff, but it's slow going because I've got other stuff to do. Anyone here who has good knowledge of spear-and-shield fighting should enlighten the rest of us.
You the same Sith poster from above? Anyway, are you sure all the dexterity stuff you're describing is from Djem So and not Shien? I don't have a copy of The Jedi Path. I've thumbed through it before but opted not to purchase it because I'm loath to give Disney any money. I should probably go back and rewatch Anakin's fight scenes from Episodes II and III, since after he gets put in the suit he doesn't have the same dexterity anymore.
That might actually convince me to play TOR, especially since it's now free-to-play.
Shien is described as more of a battlefield technique where you utilize 360 degrees of space around you to maneuver and use your blade to catch blasterfire, while Djem So is kept to dueling purposes and is noticeably less agile and maneuverable.
I get where it'd sound like I was referring to Shien but I'm not, Shien is more of a blaster focused form while Djem So is for dueling
And yeah I'm the same Sithposter
You could very well be right. I said heavy Djem So was based on samurai movies, but the Japanese swordsmanship I was taught is actually nothing like that. It's almost Soresu-like in the quickness of its parries and cuts, but not as defensive. I wasn't sure if it even had an analogue in lightsaber combat. And if you're the same Sithposter, I have to ask what you think of all the stuff I have so far on the cross lance.
My thinking for why Djem So has two separate focuses also stems from the fact that it is repeatedly said that it's development was partially if not totally due to the fact that Soresu leaves very little room for users to counterattack due to it's flowing movements.
Djem So's defensive movements are similar to Soresu's in that they are very quick and precise, but while Soresu achieves this through a natural flow, Djem So's moves may be considered fluid they are much more active while Soresu is considered mostly passive.
The primary weakness of dexterity-based Djem So is that it's not the greatest for generating kinetic energy, similar to Makashi in a way, but not to nearly the same degree.
Djem So in general seems to have a stamina problem, as exerting that much energy into both slamming around opponents and jamming your blade around with parries can be exhausting.
Sorry to hammer in the point but I had literally 2/3 of the above finished when I saw this post, my bad.
I don't know much about kendo or kenjutsu so I can't really comment on the similarities, those are just some conclusions I came to about Djem So.
And, sorry, I'm a fucking retard
When you said "above sithposter" I thought you were referring to my krayt dragon posts, not the one in the lightlance thread, who I'm not. I've been meaning to read through it though.
Sorry if I came off as a cunt for saying you fugged up Form 5, you gave a really good basic analysis but I felt more should've been said on the topic.
Didn't mean to reddit space on that one, mb
>When you said "above sithposter" I thought you were referring to my krayt dragon posts, not the one in the lightlance thread, who I'm not. I've been meaning to read through it though.
Cool stuff. Dragons are totally badass too. Any evaluation of what's been written here to date is good. I should also ask if you have any martial arts background. Not that it's some kind of requirement to post here, but it's good to understand where someone's perspective is coming from.
>My thinking for why Djem So has two separate focuses also stems from the fact that it is repeatedly said that it's development was partially if not totally due to the fact that Soresu leaves very little room for users to counterattack due to it's flowing movements.
Is that what The Jedi Path says? Soresu seems like a somewhat staccato style, though that may just be in terms of its attacks. Its movements can still be heavily interconnected even if it doesn't attack much.
>Djem So's defensive movements are similar to Soresu's in that they are very quick and precise, but while Soresu achieves this through a natural flow, Djem So's moves may be considered fluid they are much more active while Soresu is considered mostly passive.
That fits with Obi-Wan's character and the overall spirit of the Jedi very well. The Jedi are supposed to serve the Force and to be defensively oriented, so it's natural for them to adopt a style that more or less carries its user along on pure momentum, but in Djem So the flow is directed by the user instead.
>Sorry if I came off as a cunt for saying you fugged up Form 5, you gave a really good basic analysis but I felt more should've been said on the topic.
More input is always welcome. If we can build up enough reliable analysis here, the people in the threads where they're trying to basically create a fan-made alternative to nu-canon will have a ton of material to use. Plus it's fun.
>The primary weakness of dexterity-based Djem So is that it's not the greatest for generating kinetic energy, similar to Makashi in a way, but not to nearly the same degree.
This is true of any non-heavy style to one extent or another.
>Djem So in general seems to have a stamina problem, as exerting that much energy into both slamming around opponents and jamming your blade around with parries can be exhausting.
Theoretically you should be able to mitigate this issue by using the Force and/or some form of augment like cybernetics, genetic enhancements or a power suit, but that doesn't entirely fix the problem. Ataru and Juyo are the same way.
Forgot to reset my flag.
I like HEMA but I'm not HEMAfag, sorry to let you down anon.
From what I read and what it seems you guys talked about
Quoting from the Path here
>"The form came into existence through the efforts of Jedi Masters who believed that form III, Soresu, did not allow sufficient opportunities for counterattack. From this idea they developed Shien, a style that deflected blaster fire but redirected the bolts back along chosen vectors to take out opponents…Djem So follows the same philosophy of turning an enemy's attack back on him or her, but is optimized for lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat."
jesus that was long
<ataru and juyo are the same way
Completely agreed, I just meant in comparison to Soresu, a form noted for being as if not more energy conserving than Makashi.
I was just trying to show another comparison between the two forms as, as you've probably noticed, I think that they have a number of similarities.
Ataru always seemed to me to be the most physically demanding in terms of conditioning as it is so acrobatic and so energetic that it literally eats your stamina, and this effect is only drawn out if you use the Force. (which you'd probably have to)
I've never really understood the difference of Juyo too well, is it essentially a hyper-aggressive form like Ataru but where you intentionally draw from the dark side?
I understand that Vaapad siphons off of the Dark Side while also safely venting it, I'm just not too sure about Juyo.
From what I can tell both rely heavily on adding momentum built up by movement to bolster their strikes, Ataru with it's Su Ma rotations, where the practitioners are forced to commit to nearly every strike as they'd be wasting energy if they were to try to break off of an attack.
My martial arts experience isn't really impressive
>epee fenced for a few years
>got sick of it
>learned about HEMA
>been trying to learn arming sword techniques since I like them for some reason
Able to reliably go through two tatami's, so I think I finally got blade alignment down.
I noticed all the HEMA talk above and was really impressed, it's really neat seeing people bring actual experience into a discussion about lightsaber combat on a mongolian throat singing website and somehow make it digestible for newfags like me.
<from what I read and what you guys talked about
Sorry anons, it's midnight here and I don't reread my posts
I was gonna say something about lightlance combat and how it seems that a basic strategy with one would be engaging your opponent's blade with the secondary blade while trying to jab past their stalled defense with the primary blade.
In addition to spear-and-shield, aerial lightsaber combat might be worth another look. Supposing you had enough Force power to give yourself free movement in all directions, that would change the whole style.
A fencer, eh? What made you get sick of it and convert to HEMA?
>jesus that was long
Not by the standards of this thread.
>Ataru always seemed to me to be the most physically demanding in terms of conditioning as it is so acrobatic and so energetic that it literally eats your stamina, and this effect is only drawn out if you use the Force. (which you'd probably have to)
There's a fairly lengthy discussion on Ataru above that covers this.
>I've never really understood the difference of Juyo too well, is it essentially a hyper-aggressive form like Ataru but where you intentionally draw from the dark side?
Juyo doesn't seem to feature as many jumps as Ataru, but it does use Force speed. Juyo doesn't draw from the dark side without using Vaapad, but it's still an aggressive form which naturally leads to an aggressive mentality.
>From what I can tell both rely heavily on adding momentum built up by movement to bolster their strikes, Ataru with it's Su Ma rotations, where the practitioners are forced to commit to nearly every strike as they'd be wasting energy if they were to try to break off of an attack.
Vaapad relies more on the Force than anything else, which is why it's so hard to actually define what the style consists of.
>My martial arts experience isn't really impressive
I think it's best to avoid being overly impressed with your own martial arts experience regardless of how much of it you have. Overconfidence leads to getting your shit slapped.
That's the most general strategy available for the crossguard. Any move you can perform with it will be some variation on that, but the devil's in the details.
>Any move you can perform with it will be some variation on that
Well, there are some major exceptions to this, but it's late and I didn't reread my post either. That's going to be most of your repertoire though. I've been in search of a lightlance style that can break the dichotomy of solid being defensive and fluid being offensive. That sounds like a Soresu analogue for the spear, but you'd then run into the problems you have with normal Soresu. A determined swordsman stands a good chance of making it past your defense if you hardly ever attack, and if you have a spear that's bad news.
After having thought about it some more, I came to the conclusion that despite my attempt at making it more aggressive than a basic form generally should be, what I have now is like Shii-Cho in that it's mostly optimized for use against people who don't have comparable weaponry. Shii-Cho is optimized for use against people who don't have lightsabers or armor capable of resisting them. This style works against people who have normal lightsabers, and it's usable in general against almost anything, but it's not really optimized for one thing or the other. Because we're talking about spears here, there isn't likely to be a Makashi analogue, and I'm not really a fan of Soresu or Ataru in general. I think we could see at least a couple more dedicated styles though. I'm currently uncertain if they rely on the crossguard or not.
>what I have now is like Shii-Cho in that it's mostly optimized for use against people who don't have comparable weaponry
>it's not really optimized for one thing or the other
Well look at me contradicting myself. Yeah I'm going to bed. This only makes sense if you lump "anything other than the weapon you have" into one giant category, meaning it can work against many things without being intended for that specific use. Point is, it doesn't have a fully developed focus. Shii-Cho and Djem So might both be called generalist styles, but Djem So has a much more developed system of movements. This spear style is designed to be flexible, with mostly linear movements that can be chained together but don't require overcommitting, much like how Shii-Cho works. However, it has very little fluidity, either of a passive or active nature. Also, the slashing game is still unrefined, which is something I've been trying to correct by applying more fluidity. These things need to get fixed, but that's not happening right now.
Converted to HEMA because I felt really confined by the rules of fencing, being forced to advance and retreat the same way, having to achieve rightaway or have that hit considered faulty, stuff like that wore me down over time, while HEMA feels very natural and free where it relies more on you learning and mastering different techniques rather than learning the rules in order to not accidentally break them.
Based on descriptions from the Jedi Path Shii Cho's just a set of simple stances and strikes that target and defend the body zones while using reasonably broad bladework.
Based on Kit Fisto's, the reigning master of Shii Cho during the Clone Wars, fights in the Cestus Deception Shii Cho when taken to it's highest form turns into an extremely random but fast blur of wide sweeps and cuts that is almost impossible to predict, even with the precognitive powers of the Force helping you.
Shii Cho also seems to have been developed in order to aid Jedi Initiates when it comes to nurturing their connection to the Force, exemplified by blaster deflection training where they are forced to rely on the Force.
Here's a Fisto quote, Cestus Deception Ch.42
>"Your body holds memories of pain, anger, fear, it holds them in your tissues, conditioned responses that attempt to protect you from future injury. Tight like a fist it warps and twists you, when you collect enough of them they are like armor.
>But Jedi wear no armor, armor both protects and numbs. Jedi must expose themselves fully to the currents of the Universe.
>I can teach you to remove some of these wounds, think of them as boulders, obstacles on the river of energy, learn to flow around your fears and angers instead of crashing against them. Learn to do this well enough and you can even learn to direct the river to move the boulders for you."
It seems that a large amount of Shii Cho relies on using the Force to amp it's relatively simple bladework, and while that could be said for any form, (that the Force is used to make them more effective) it is especially important for Shii Cho.
>it's mostly optimized for use against people who don't have comparable weaponry
I think you're on to something here.
Based on Shii Cho's signature moves, the Sarlacc Sweep and the Disarming Slash, I think it's fair to say that a large amount of Shii Cho's moves focus on either wide or broad cuts that translate very well into crowd-control situations where the user has to carve through a mass of poorly equipped opponents, similar to what you said.
>The second Han picked up Luke's saber in ESB, that possibility was off the table.
you could argue that Han was only able to switch on the lightsaber because Luke was right there.
also, I'm okay with saber colors representing the user's connection to the Force. not every darkside saber has to be red though. the way I'd set it up is:
>green, blue, indigo, violet
>red, orange, yellow
Lightsaber crystals are certain colors because they just grew that way, that's why the crystals on Ilum were blue and green. Sith synthetic crystals are red because it's a tradition of theirs, hurrikaine crystals are purple because they just are.
I get where you guys were going with this, but lightsabers are mechanical weapons with some mysticism surrounding them, they usually require a Force user to construct them, let's not add any Force shenanigans that aren't necessary to them, keep it simple.
Changing a crystal's color through the Force should be an incredibly difficult feat that displays a massive amount of either raw power or talent.
>I felt really confined by the rules of fencing
Sounds like your problem is with the way fencing was being taught. There have to be some fencing teachers out there that throw out a lot of the junk and use a more practical approach. Seeing as Makashi is basically fencing with lightsabers, you should tell us what you think about that. Maybe you can create a new breed of fencer. I'd also be interested to hear your opinion on the above debate regarding Komari Vosa vs Coleman Trebor and their effectiveness against blaster wielding opponents. Of course that would require some knowledge of dual-wielded fencing swords, which I don't know if any fencing discipline actually uses.
>It seems that a large amount of Shii Cho relies on using the Force to amp it's relatively simple bladework
There doesn't seem to be much Force use in Shii-Cho, partly because it's the introductory form taught to beginning students who don't yet have a solid grasp of the Force. It should be noted that what I've been saying about pulling from Juyo to create a lightlance form is probably what makes it similar to Shii-Cho, because one way of thinking about Juyo is as a more refined and Force-intensive Shii-Cho. I also tried to pull from Form V, but I don't seem to have actually gotten much of that into the spear form.
It might also be possible to create an Ataru-like spear form that incorporates strategies to use in aerial dueling, but I probably wouldn't use that to any great extent both because it eats stamina quickly and because spending a lot of time jumping around will often expose you to additional attacks that staying on the ground wouldn't. Jumping should be used very situationally. There's also the question of the spear and shield, but that's something else altogether.
>keep it simple.
>Changing a crystal's color through the Force should be an incredibly difficult feat that displays a massive amount of either raw power or talent.
I agree with both of these. and for the record, the nu-canon piffle about bleeding a crystal and turning it dark is nonsensical.
however, I think there is some merit to my idea. if the Jedi use the high frequency part of the color spectrum, it follows that Sith use the lower frequencies.
maybe synthetic crystals tend to be yellow/orange/red, while natural crystals tend to be green/blue/indigo/violet. and maybe one's connection to the force needs to correspond to the crystal in order to use the lightsaber effectively. this could work without overly complicating matters.
Rapiers are inarguably one of the greatest weapons if you're trying to kill someone in a former duel, with two individuals of equal skill and experience but if one has a rapier and the other has a saber the rapier-wielder will come out on top 8/10 times in my personal experience and opinion.
Modern fencing tends be be overly focused on etiquette over function which, or at the very least everything I saw was that way.
Makashi though is awesome, an extremely minimalist form that is so optimized for dueling that it kind of eats shit in other regards, such as in group fights and against blaster wielding opponents.
However, as Dooku has proven, it's definitely possible to not only overcome these flaws but become one of the greatest fighters of all time despite developing those skills in an environment where it was shunned is extremely impressive.
I like Makashi, I'd probably call it my 3rd or 4th favorite form, despite my reservations about modern fencing.
I hate to bring up Kit Fisto again but he implies that the Force is as important to Shii Cho as it is in Niman, not in those words of course but the statement still applies.
He refers to the Force as a "howling demon" inside of his head that drives his martial skill, and given that the Form was designed to up nurture an initiate's connection to the Force I can definitely see this having a large effect if taken to the nth degree.
If you were to say that this is an individual example of a Shii Cho specialist utilizing a personal application of the form opposed to a more standard application you'd be completely right.
It definitely has merit anon, my issue is just that Red has always been synonymous with the Sith order as their special little tradition, and we've seen Jedi with yellow and orange lightsabers.
I also don't like the idea that a crystal's color "aligns" with the Force based on that merit alone, I think it should align with the Force because it was uniquely intended to be owned by a certain individual, Red crystals being synonymous with Sith is because in the EU when Sith made their crystals they essentially imbued themselves into it.
This dynamic fit very well with the Jedi being selected by the Force to have a certain crystal and Sith creating their own crystal for themselves, as it's something of a callback to their separate relationships with the Force.
I would have thought Makashi would be higher than your 3rd or 4th favorite. How would you rank the styles and why?
Shii-Cho is kind of a minimalist form as well, but the more Force use you add to it, the closer it becomes to Juyo. Relying too much on bladework rather than the Force is what the Jedi are trying to avoid, but they also don't want to abuse the Force, which is why Vaapad is only taught to a handful of students. They're trying to find that balance, and Soresu is the midpoint between the two, with a relatively equal amount of swordsmanship technique and Force power. If you abuse the Force, you adopt the mindset of someone like the Emperor. Conversely, if you're just going to rely on bladework, what separates you from someone like General Grievous? Djem So is probably the closest thing to a maximalist style, and Shien can also be very fluid. I pulled some stuff from Shien to work with the spear, so if any Djem So is to be used, that's probably the best place to start incorporating it. Thinking that way might lead to the best real-world martial arts techniques to use for this. However, there's what you said about the two different types of Djem So to consider. I don't think the Wookieepedia article makes any of what you said clear enough, and we've seen several examples like that already.
Interesting, I like how you're constructing a functional style for the lightlance, it shows a lot dedication man.
In terms of personal preference it goes
Not a big fan of Niman
In terms of which I think the best it goes
Soresu and Juyo are both the ultimate expressions of Offense and Defense, therefore they're interchangeable based on the situation.
Djem So/Shien together answer eachother very well, with the mobility and precision of Shien makes up for Djem So's relative lack of mobility while Djem So's complex nature fits with lots of situations very well.
>I don't think the Wookieepedia article makes any of what you said clear enough, and we've seen several examples like that already.
Take everything I said with a grain of salt, it's just an observation that I noticed about the form.
I just can't honestly accept that the same form that has the Fluid Riposte attributed to it, a maneuver prioritizing speed and precision built upon dexterous bladework, being attributed to a form that just swings around a lightsaber like a club trying to batter the opponent to the ground.
It just doesn't fit that the defend-counter-defend-counter rhythm of defensive Djem So can be paired with the crushing assault of offensive Djem So and both of those mentalities finding their foundations on strength and power alone.
Soresu and Juyo are both the ultimate expressions of Offense and Defense respectively*
>I like how you're constructing a functional style for the lightlance, it shows a lot dedication man.
I'm surprised a canon source hasn't done this already. I thought somebody should make it happen.
I wouldn't put Soresu so high, and it's hard to know where to put Juyo since it's so Force-power reliant. Niman is even more minimalist than Shii-Cho, so I agree with putting it very low since it's so focused on the Force that to me it doesn't have enough bladework to even be called a lightsaber style. I'm not a fan of Makashi because of its weakness against blasters. Jumping is kind of a point of contention, which means I think Ataru is mostly pretty meh unless you're Yoda. Jumping can sometimes be okay in duels and it can work pretty well against blasters, but blasters aren't the only weapons out there. To me the styles that are really worth it are 1 and 5, which goes along with what I said about creating a lightsaber training program oriented around Juyo and the Form V styles. I notice you didn't include 2 or 1 in this ranking as well. My ranking of both personal preference and which form I think is the best would be something like this, with 7 omitted:
>I just can't honestly accept that the same form that has the Fluid Riposte attributed to it, a maneuver prioritizing speed and precision built upon dexterous bladework, being attributed to a form that just swings around a lightsaber like a club trying to batter the opponent to the ground.
This is a valid observation. It's pretty hard to make a move like that transition smoothly either to or from a bashing strike.
I see what you mean, but giving every Sith a red saber seems confining, when the Jedi use the rest of the rainbow. I don't remember many orange sabers, although the Jedi Sentinels used yellow (as did a few others). ultimately it's not that big of a deal, just my personal view of things.
I like the rare crystals more than just fucking mood ring crystals.
red saber works as an intimation factor too. Sith are more of a exclusive secret club, only them using red sabers gives them that image too
true. but what about non-Sith darksiders? I could see the red saber being an icon of the Sith, while others use orange etc.
I prefer Dark Jedi/pleb-tier non-Sith darksiders to use whatever lightsabers they feel like, Dark jedi using the one they had as a Jedi and non-sith either using Force-imbued weaponry like swords or focusing more on their Force powers like King Omin of Onderon.
Plo Koon in the Stark Hyperspace War used an orange/gold lightsaber, Farfalla used a ((((Gold)))) lightsaber that in all artwork attributed to him resembles and orange one, and orange lightsabers are repeatedly referred to as gold online
I always thought it'd be fun to have a blacklight saber. It looks awesome, and you could use it to find all those counterfeit bills and the spots where the drunk aliens from some previously unheard-of species puked mutagenic vomit on your carpet at the toga party last night. There are probably many applications for lightsaber technology other than fighting.
on a whim of nostalgia, I fired up jedi academy…somehow, the lightsaber combat, barring actual sith fights, seems to have gotten even better it hurts to know we'll never get another like it again
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
Why Anakin’s Lightsaber DIDN'T Turn RED After Killing Younglings
The most succinct explanation for this is "that's fucking retarded." I did have a few ideas for actually useful color-changing lightsabers though. One of them is making a lightsaber crystal that works like Sting from Lord of the Rings. It'd start out as one color and then change to another whenever a certain type of enemy, like an enemy Force user, is nearby.
about the mood ring crystals, can't they just pop it in as it is and make a clear/white blade?
Because he had a blue kyber crystal in the fucking thing?
I hope someone's been archiving this thread.
I know we haven't addressed aerial saber combat or physical shields in enough detail yet, and I haven't finished with the cross lance, but there's something else I thought we should talk about. It may have to wait until next thread though, and 500 posts is already pushing it as far as what aspiring fan authors who want to make alternatives to Disney's crap would be willing to read as a reference. But I started thinking about how all the tactics and weapons we've talked about in this thread would carry over to telekinetic lightsaber combat. Telekinesis lets you use techniques you could never do just holding a weapon in your hands. If anyone's interested in that, most of those will have to be made from scratch because obviously no real-world martial art includes them. But even in Star Wars there aren't too many who do this. Kreia was the most adept at it, but Wookieepedia lists some other users. It may be better to consider aerial saber combat a subtype of telekinetic saber combat since you need telekinesis to fly without a jetpack.
There's another possibility related to this, but more extreme since it uses teleportation. Teleportation barely exists in Star Wars, but a few outstanding Force users can do it. Naturally, it takes more effort and power to teleport a living being intact than it does to teleport cargo. A fighter who can teleport would be near unbeatable if their opponent can't also do it, but teleporting yourself isn't all you could do. You could teleport your weapons around instead of using telekinesis on them. You could even use teleportation to keep any weapon you like in reserve on your ship or at home and switch weapons easily in the middle of combat or even in the middle of a technique. No one in Star Wars and very few other characters period have ever demonstrated this. The best example is probably Noctis of Final Fantasy XV, but he can only fight Kreia-style and use unrestricted teleportation with his Armiger power, which recharges slowly and doesn't normally stay up for long. He mostly uses one weapon at a time and can only warp to wherever he can throw it. The Episode Duscae demo had him assign each weapon to a different attack button and materialize the weapon when the attack is used, but they changed that before release for some dumbass reason.
What happened to the flags? I went to make a post the other day and found that the flag selector was missing. When I went to post this it came back, but now it's gone again.
But anyway, given the similarities between space combat and lightsaber combat that arise when you start looking at aerial lightsaber combat, it might be better to just make a thread about space combat tactics and apply its lessons to this one. I'm surprised nobody's done that yet, or even so much as made a general thread about your favorite ships. I've sometimes wondered why we don't see ships using tactical hyperspace jumps where they jump only a short distance and come out at a different spot in the same battlespace, effectively the same as teleporting. You might chalk that up to it requiring enormous fuel consumption, but it seems like an option that should still be there.
Also, as part of the next thread, we should look at making a new version of >>9609, >>9610, and other posts similar to them, because a lot has happened since they were written.
Try tossing your cookies mate. Mine work just prim and proper.
Yes. Darth Krayt used a green lightsaber, Exar Kun used blue. Luke had a red one after ROTJ too.
I have cookies turned off.
>I've sometimes wondered why we don't see ships using tactical hyperspace jumps where they jump only a short distance and come out at a different spot in the same battlespace, effectively the same as teleporting. You might chalk that up to it requiring enormous fuel consumption, but it seems like an option that should still be there.
That does happen.
(I'm almost certain this happened during the Thrawn trilogy too, with Joruus C'baoth helping to coordinate it, but that's not listed under appearances and I don't feel like looking through my books at the moment)
I don't know why you don't see this more. Is it possible that Force teleportation is just performing a hyperjump without a ship? If so, it'd be much easier to put constraints on teleporting lightsaber combat because the properties of hyperspace are well known, although other methods of FTL exist.
Here's something else we need another thread to answer. Given that lightsabers can reflect blaster bolts and shipboard laser cannons are just starship-sized blasters, why aren't there any capital ships or snubfighters that mount starship-sized lightsabers? You wouldn't necessarily have to make space-capable mecha to use them proficiently, but you could if you wanted to. You could just attach a robot arm to one part of the ship and mount a lightsaber-type weapon in it. But the Empire already has the tech to make AT-series units, so mecha aren't entirely unheard-of. The vehicle could use microjumps as teleportation as well, because the only thing more extreme than teleporting lightsaber duelists is teleporting giant robot lightsaber duelists.
>Is it possible that Force teleportation is just performing a hyperjump without a ship?
Teleportation isn't limited by being in a gravity well, so I'm guessing not.
Weren't there a few instances where a ship jumped to hyperspace inside a gravity well? Everything in the universe is under the influence of the gravity of everything else, so you're always in some kind of gravity well. Besides, Han says you can fly right through a star while in hyperspace, and a star has a much bigger gravity well than a planet. That makes it seem like the only reason ships come out of hyperspace if they get too close to a realspace gravity well is as a fail-safe to stop them from colliding with a planet or other major stellar body. Although the Aing-Tii use teleportation that's documented to be much faster than ordinary hyperspace travel. Some of the ancient races also built hypergates, and the reborn Emperor created hyperspace wormholes which can enable much faster travel than any ship.
It was in the Thrawn trilogy, but it's portrayed as something very risky tactically (it's imprecise and, according to the rest of the EU, ships have to reactivate their shields after exiting hyperspace so you could drop right in the middle of the enemy fire with no shields) unless you're using Interdictor to control exactly where your ships drop out (as Thrawn did).
According ti nu-canon lightsaber colors are determined by how good or evil you are not on the innate crystal color.
Seriously? I guess that means Mace Windu was part evil and why they even bothered to let him on the council. Also the whole "make your crystal cry and bleed" thing is stupid
>I guess that means Mace Windu was part evil
Vaapad does involve coming close to the dark side. Nucanon crystals are dumb as shit though.
>Nucanon crystals are dumb as shit though.
Especially since I always liked the idea of rare non darksiders using red lightsabers. Of course I consider the entirety of nu-canon to be shit and ignore it other than to laugh at it.
How does nucanon deal with the fact that Aayla Secura canonically has two colors for her lightsabers? Speaking of which, if red means your a big meanie and blue means your a paragon of virtue, what the fuck does green mean? Are you a vegan faggot if you get green? Do you have a goldenshower fetish if you turn up yellow? What about exotic colors like silver? Does that mean you're a jew if you get silver? Is orange for people who work construction jobs? This retcon is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard of next to those scam artists who sold those emotion color bracelets.
This is why mood crystals are autistic and need to be ignored
Holy kark, we've just about got a full thread. I guess I'm going to have to put the cross lance writeup in the next one. Sadly it seems as if few of the fan projects I'd hoped for are actually making progress. Not making progress on a fan project is a pretty familiar story for me. I've managed to get the first three sections of the guide done, but there's still a lot of stuff to do.
It's nice stuff, I for one appreciate your autism. There's a certain grace about blade-on-blade combat that does it for me, especially when it's all laid out in technical detail. (See pic in >>10607)
It's graceful, true, but it has so much more than that. Using a lightsaber means having a higher skill level than most people and actually being rewarded for it. One of the worst things about modern society is that meritocracy is dead and has been for a long time. You can make the best movie, the best videogame, or the best of absolutely anything else and not get a damn bit of recognition because it doesn't go along with what the cultural gatekeepers want. Star Wars as a whole wasn't what they wanted even back when it was released. The suits thought the whole thing was going to end in failure, and they got blown the fuck out when George Lucas took a shoestring budget and made a worldwide phenomenon with it. Then Disney managed to get control of it, and they took a property that should have been a license to print money and shat the bed with it. All their money didn't save them from making bad movies. It turns out that the only thing that can save you from making bad movies is a real filmmaker with a real vision, and you can't just go out and buy one of those.
I have some sad news. I misidentified the name of the real weapon the one in >>16047 is based on. This would be a katakama yari. I don't know how I managed to fuck that up. I think one of the sites I was looking it up on confused the two, but it's been too long since that post for me to remember exactly. Then again, there have been a number of different variations on this concept with one or two crossblades as well as both curved and straight crossblades. Anyway, I'll make sure to correct this in the guide. It helps to actually learn something about the language of the place where the weapon or style you're looking at comes from. You'd think all that time spent watching anime would have helped.
Somehow I've actually gotten the lion's share of the cross lance guide done now. It went in a direction I didn't really expect, which is part of why it's taken so long. Beyond the prospect of aerial and teleporting lightsaber combat, there are also a few other (mostly ranged) weapons we have yet to talk about in detail here which are going to have to be saved for the next thread. Some of them have some pretty devastating prospects for most lightsaber users and may force a lot of changes to existing systems of lightsaber combat. That's probably going to require a serviceable knowledge of physics to suss out, or at least a serviceable knowledge of science fiction.
I hate to go and post four in a row, but I thought the thread should have a little update as to where I am right now with the cross lance guide because it's already been like 4 or 5 months that I've been working on it, which is obscene. It's actually ballooned to the point of being bigger than the first guide, which was unexpected to me. I know this isn't on a strict deadline or anything, but I wanted to include as much detail as I thought was necessary. I wish I had some artists to render this into the much more accessible form of pictures, because a picture has more power to convey the key points of the weapon. I'd say it's about 90% done at this point. The only thing the guide currently lacks is a sample kata. If anyone wants to help with that, it'd be appreciated. There are just so many spear kata out there that it's a chore to find one that accurately represents the fundamentals of the weapon, or even several that represent it when taken together, and that problem gets worse when you realize that almost none of the kata you're likely to find on random martial arts websites will tell you anything about what you should do with a crossguard.
And I forgot to mention something important. Hooray. The guide includes a new custom lightsaber variant design that I thought was exceptionally well-suited to combat a spear, but unfortunately I have no idea how to correctly use it, so I'm going to have to call for help on that.
Invidious embed. Click thumbnail to play.
So something was briefly mentioned in this video that I didn't know about before–despite having no mass, lightsaber blades offer some amount of resistance due to a "gyroscopic effect." If this is true (I haven't read the source material), it could alter the manual of arms for lightsaber combat significantly.
Some sources claim the lightsaber blade has no weight and mention nothing that would make it act as though it had weight, while others say the "gyroscopic effect" gives it the feeling of weight regardless. Calling the mechanism a gyroscopic effect gives the impression that it involves torque, which can be canceled by using an antitorque device like the tail rotor of a helicopter. The existence of a virtual weight effect may allow for adjustable blade weight, which would give the lightsaber the ability to flawlessly replicate any physical blade style, but there arguably isn't a real reason to bother with such a mechanic even if it exists because the lightsaber will still have the same damage characteristics regardless of what weight you choose.
I just figured out what could cause this. Too bad there's just one more post left in the thread after this to discuss it until we hit the bump limit, but it's probably about time for a new thread anyway. We can talk about this more there. We've got lots of other things to discuss anyway, and newcomers won't have to wade through 500 posts unless they really feel like it. Anyway, the blade of a lightsaber could be given an illusion of more substantial weight through relativistic mass dilation if it's truly a plasma-based weapon and the magnetic field that contains the plasma spins it up to relativistic velocity. I haven't done the math for this, but spinning it that fast would probably require so much torque that you'd need an anti-torque system just to avoid ripping your arms off with the counterforce, and you'd need so much power that I don't see how you could ever fit that into a normal lightsaber hilt even with Star Wars tech. You're probably going to need something that with today's technology couldn't be made smaller than a nuclear power plant, if even that. If someone aspiring to be the first one to build a real plasma sword was looking at this, this person would dismiss the mass dilation system without a second thought.
>Anyway, the blade of a lightsaber could be given an illusion of more substantial weight through relativistic mass dilation if it's truly a plasma-based weapon and the magnetic field that contains the plasma spins it up to relativistic velocity.
You don't need to get up to mass-dilation speeds before you experience some torque, no? You'd need mass dilation to get the inertial mass of a gaseous blade up to that of a metal one, but we're not just dealing with linear inertia here, but also rotational inertia. Even at angular speeds far lower than relativistic, the mere fact that the plasma is rotating is going to provide resistance. Just picking up a spinning top and trying to pivot it perpendicular to the axis of rotation provides noticeable resistance, after all, and we don't have any data indicating the magnitude of this resistance, only that it's noticeable.
Feel free to start a new thread by the way, this one's saved in an archive now.
…which I didn't bother to include in my post, either. Good to see that flag-eating bug is still around, though