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/liberty/ - Liberty

Non-authoritarian Discussion of Politics, Society, News, and the Human Condition (Fun Allowed)


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Welcome to /liberty/, your board for the discussion of politics, society, news, and the human condition without authoritarianism (fascism, full-on communism, etc). The board's philosophy is simple - welcome all discussion from non-authoritarian viewpoints, light moderation, and most importantly of all fun.

We've seen SJWs, we've seen the far right, and we've seen the far left and we've said no, stop this madness - the moralizing authoritarians who seek to control society and shape it to their whims and test out their vague theories would enslave us just to feel that society was better. At /liberty/ we believe we would be best served by sticking to the path we've been on for so long, that of personal liberty.


See the image - if you make the cut, you'll be right at home on /liberty/. Even if you are an authoritarian (far left or far right), you're welcome to join us - just don't expect to be taken seriously.


1. Global Rules uber alles.

2. Spamming can result in a short ban. In the event of raids, discussion threads will be stickied to weather the storm.

3. Rules are lame, don't make me make more and don't whine for more moderation unless it is absolutely necessary.

4. This board has an actual topic and it's not fetish porn. Content that is clearly beyond the pale of the board's topic (fetish porn, clop, gore, etc) will be removed. If you need these things, they are a mere three clicks away; you can even get there one-handed.

Board Policy Vis-a-vis…

1. "Shitposting"

There is no such thing as shitposting. It's a vague and subjective concept that boils down to "irreverent posts or things I don't like," and therefore makes a bad yardstick for moderation. If you want discussion without fun, may I suggest another board?

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Help to compile a list of resources (preferably free) about non-authoritarian political thought. If you want to see something added, make a thread to discuss adding things to this list and I'll edit it in here if it's good.

Our list so far:
Please note that inclusion on this list is not an endorsement of a work. What you do with this information is your choice.

The Online Library of Liberty
Find hundreds of writings, books, essays, etc. on classical liberal thought.

Mises Institute
Find dozens of free books, audiobooks, and lectures on libertarian thought from an Austrian school perspective.

The Anarchist Library
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Organizations of Interest
Inclusion on the list is not endorsement. Organizations are listed in no particular order.

The Fire - Foundation for Individual Rights in Education
These people are your friends - they fight for freedom! FIRE is a non-partisan individual rights advocacy group that seeks to defend freedom of speech, legal equality, due process, religious liberty, and sanctity of conscience on American college and university campuses.
Website: http://www.thefire.org/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheFIREorg

American Enterprise Institute
The AEI is a nonpartisan public policy research institute. Everything from American politics to international events and beyond.
Website: https://www.aei.org/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/AEIVideos

Learn Liberty
A project of the Institute for Humane Studies, a libertarian non-profit. Learn about economics, public policy, and more.
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What financial investments could I look into that would eventually lead to a decline in Africa's birth rate? Birth control pills, DIY vasectomy/abortion kits, etc.

I'd pay solid dollar just to have less niggers in the world tbh.

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Or we could allow the market to build the infrastructure that will feed them instead of interfering in it by supplying warlords with weapons and imposing tariffs/quotas on these countries' exports.



but guess what, those things didn't happen. you just cut off food aid and killed millions of people.



Actually, yes.


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It's the niggers and muslims that keep africa poor, anon. it's been a fertile, luscious and greatly productive side of the world as long as it's been under egyptian/greco-roman/european rule. Literally even the biodiversity of the fauna is going extinct in Africa due to the negro epidemic funded by western gibs.


>birth control

Anon, in Africa the media/advertisement teach niggers that condoms will kill them.

Guess, (((who))) funds such endeavor?

Wanna compare with US advertisement?



Yes, actually. Your socialist food aid is a bandaid solution to the problem and creates even more Problems. What do you do with a band aid? You tear it off quickly. Cutting all food aid would cause things to first get way worse in Africa but it would quickly stabilize itself within a few generations. What do you want leftycuck? Sub-sahara to be sub-sahara indefinitely or for sub sahara to actually start to get better after a period of getting even worse? Your ideology did a lot of damage so capitalism will no doubt take a while to fix it, but it can be done once it finally fucking ends.

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The left just can't wrap their heads around these concepts.

Also I seem to can't respond to this thread >>69534

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Everyone has some sentimental items with no market value at all. Would someone buy a childhood photo of yours, or some broken wallet that your father fixed with duct tape? Not at all. The market value of such items is exactly zero, probably less (other people would pay to get rid of them), and yet if you lost them and paid a detective to find them, for example, no one in his right mind would call that behavior irrational.


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This ~> >>69844

Also another video


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If I trade something worth 5 dollars on the market for something else worth 5 dollars on the market I have not created any more value in the economy. If we are talking about purely market value then trade does not create it.


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a reduction of opportunity cost arises from trade. This is what the video means when it states that trade creates wealth.

I suggest learning about Comparative Advantage.

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Marxism is ___

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fake and gay





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>The government forces the rich to be more charitable than they actually want to be

Take a fucking moment to reflect on the idea of "forced charity" and how much of an oxymoron that is.

The state increases everybody's time preference through things like taxation, and this makes people think less about everything else around them, including family members, let alone less fortunate strangers, and more about their own pockets so they can survive. The entire moral framework of society becomes deluded over time, since it has been given to an institution that can only act through violence and survives on theft and slavery.



>A dream

And then you wake up.


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I lean much more towards libertarianism than the average /pol/ack. And I miss when there used to be decent debate on the board. But explain this, faggots:

>Support BLM

>non-whites dindu nuffin

>gays need more gibs

>illegal aliens deserve citizenship

>attention whore Snowden is a patriot

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>Any libertarian worth jack shit would side with nogs against the police any time of the day.

Oh yes, of course. Clearly, any Libertarian worth his salt would side with the niggers who use every news report having anything to do with a shooting to riot, steal, commit property damage, cause millions of dollars in property damage ranging from vehicles and even to people's businesses, and perhaps even kill. Clearly, in comparison to the Police, the rioting niggers in the street and the social justice warriors who promote them are clearly the best of the two.

Do you know why Libertarians, anarcho-capitalists and the sort oppose the government in the first place? They oppose it by and large due to a recognition that government is force, and that it is theft, not just that the government is the government. What does that mean? it means that theft, force and other aggressive activities committed against innocent people should be opposed, which is all things those fucking BLM niggers have done on a massive scale. So the idea that "any libertarian worth jack shit" would side with a bunch of rioters, looters and thugs who contradict the most basic propositions of Libertarianism (the NAP) is fucking hilarious. The police aren't saints, but in comparison to the people breaking into other people's stores, burning cars, destroying buildings in the name of Black Power and every other retarded cause under the sun, the police do certainly have a poorly lit halo over their heads, but it's a halo nonetheless.

>Kill yourself if you disagree. Racism always degenerates into spreading your cheeks for big gov to penetrate you so you can stay protected from "those scary negroes".

What the fuck is this logic? I suppose following this line of thought, one believing in evolution also degenerates into you demanding public schooling so as to keep society protected from the "unenlightened masses"? Fucking moron.



> which is all things those fucking BLM niggers have done on a massive scale

These are all things cops do on an infinitely wider scale than rioting niggers can ever hope to achieve. Cops kindap and imprison MILLIONS of innocent Americans per year for bullshit charges.

Police are not the solution to crime and rioting mobs. Getting your own gun and learning 2 self defense is you fucking pussy. You're a scared little bitch who wants the government to wipe your ass while oppressing millions.


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>These are all things cops do on an infinitely wider scale than rioting niggers can ever hope to achieve. Cops kindap and imprison MILLIONS of innocent Americans per year for bullshit charges.

So that's an excuse to burn down your local businesses, commit assaults, destroy buildings and the sort? What the fuck? I mean let's amuse the idea of the whole "kidnap and imprison MILLIONS of innocent Americans", okay, let's say that's true. How exactly does this make them any better? That's like if I'm a Russian and I'm really pissed off at the Soviet Police so I decide to go around and beat the shit out of people with a baseball bat. It's just utter retardation.

>Police are not the solution to crime and rioting mob

>Getting your own gun and learning 2 self defense is you fucking pussy.

How disconnected are you from reality? I'm beginning to think that you know nothing about Libertarianism or Anarcho-Capitalism. It's called Private security/ police. Not everyone is going to be able to get a firearm and protect themselves and some people find the idea of it to not be a long or withstanding idea considering perhaps that a person is a singular person whereas a mob with firearms has more firepower.

>You're a scared little bitch who wants the government to wipe your ass while oppressing millions.

I don't like niggers robbing and looting innocent people and businesses, so by saying that someone should do something against them I am oppressing millions? Get your head out of your ass you fucking moron,.



> Racism always degenerates into spreading your cheeks for big gov to penetrate you so you can stay protected from "those scary negroes".





>t. Kike

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>White separatism in the United States and Western Europe seeks separation and survival of the white race and limits to nonwhite immigration. According to two sociologists writing in 2000, most separatists formally reject any ideology of white supremacy, but some left-wing advocacy groups SOROS still continue to oppose such separatist groups.


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>Most North American and many other Native American groups already have a high degree of autonomy. Complete separatism is advocated by some members of the Canadian First Nations, American Indian Movement, Republic of Lakotah (Lakota Sioux people in South Dakota), and tribal groups in Eastern Oklahoma, most notably the Cherokee people of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma.


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>Italy's separatist movements in Sardinia, Sicily, South Tyrol and Veneto.

>Bavarian separatism in Germany, despite the Bavarian Land being referred to as the Bavarian Free State.


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Separatism is /liberty/ in practice.


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I fucking hate yankees.

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If this was going on and you HAD to join one of the sides and fight, which would it be and why?

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Kek this is literally the story of Haiti, the French declared the nigger slave equals and then they genocided all the French (whites)


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Don't you remember the thread?

Ancaps specifically said that forcing others off thier property for disobeying contracts (which they are free to do so) is perfectly fine.

Do you know what the NAP is?



And in the case of an island that you own in its entirety, just tossing them in the ocean and telling them to swim somewhere else is ethically questionable at best. If you want someone off of your property but they're physically incapable of leaving, then it's your job to move them somewhere else.



This. Evicting them still qualifies as killing. If every act of eviction was automatically just, then throwing someone out your window instead of letting him walk ten meters to the door would be just too, and that is obviously nonsense.



Don't you remember the thread about right of way?

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>Open up a book I downloaded

>"The Limits of the Market"

>Look at the list of figures

>Something about market fundamentalism


Who the fuck came up with this shitty term? I'm honestly at a loss here. It implies that we're taking on blind faith that the market works, when we have dozens of large treatises that meticulously lay down the principles of our economic theories. Unsurprisingly, the author of the aforementioned book doesn't mention Mises, Hayek, or Rothbard, but he does mention Milton Friedman. These cowards pick the easy targets, then complain why there's no hard prey. Of course Friedman cannot make a strong case for capitalism when he's so busy making concessions left and right to the government. Isn't that to be expected? That's like trying to dissect socialism while only reading pamphlets of social democrats.

I also like the "pendulum" in the beginning of that novel. It's like the author is saying:

>Look, I don't say that capitalism is bad! I'm only saying that sometimes, we need capitalism, and sometimes, we need a strong government to spread our buttocks, I mean, to save the economy.

>Let's not go to any extremes! We can compromise! How about we steal fourty percent and not fifty percent of your income?

I'll take faggots like that serious when they actually let the pendulum swing both ways, when they don't use their pragmatism solely as an excuse to increase the size of government and actually propose that we eliminate the income tax, privatize elementary schools and cut subsidies to large corporations every twenty years. But of course, they never do that. Even now, when the government takes fucking half of all your resources, they'll claim that it's atrophied.

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You've been arguing that they're just biased crackpots this entire thread.



Yeah, this: >>69907

You made this pretty obvious. It's not like you just said you go with Keynes because he seems to be less controversial, you judged how qualified the rest were. Case in point:


>Milton Friedman is the most famous name there, and probably the most qualified.


>Maybe you should also kill yourself.

Okay, that was mostly just rude, but as it was in reply to me pointing out your admission of ignorance, I think it's still kinda relevant.


>People who hold libertarian ideologies can't be trusted to come to objective conclusions.

Basically saying that Mises, Rothbard etc., all of whom were formally trained economists who held degrees, were wrong and only came to their conclusions due to ideological bias.

>And those people hardly ever get into actual specific points of evidence, so that's another reason to trust the academics skilled in issues.

And here you're even judging them based on the evidence they present. So clearly, you do think you're qualified to judge whether an economist can back his theories up.


>No from holding ideologies which colour their perception.

Same as above.

>read them. What I mean is (Friedman and monetarism aside) they weren't actually diving into specific points of evidence, so much as describing general economic ideas.

Again, here you're judging them based on their supposed Post too long. Click here to view the full text.




You're both idiots. I don't know economics more than them but I do believe they're biased.

>In the meantime, you evaded most attempts from me to talk about questions of methodology or substance generally

I'm not obligated to discuss economics with you.

>When reading Mises, who - again - helped develop a theory that won a nobel price, you thought you were competent to disregard him because of his supposed lack of evidence.

No I didn't.

Last time I'm responding to this stupid thread full of idiots who can't understand a simple point.


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>You're both idiots. I don't know economics more than them but I do believe they're biased.

Look here: >>69840

You cannot reliably judge whether they're biased based on the criteria that you keep invoking. One major criterion is whether or not they are actually right, but you're going out of your way to not look at it.

I suggest you leave for a week or two, ease that buttpain, then either make an effort to actually learn economics, or officially declare this topic outside your field of expertise and stop talking about it. It's what I did with mathematics, physics, chemistry, and many other natural sciences. I just plain don't have an opinion in these fields, and don't interfere in any controversy in them.



>The fact that libertarians say those things.


>People largely believe taxation to be moral- apart from libertarians.

Libertarians are concerned about the ethical justification of forced taxation, and not the morality. And this is not limited to libertarians - for most of US history and many proponents today supported Locke's view on consent of the governed.

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Hey we have a long standing 1yr+ ancap discord and need some advertisement plugs to replace the lost ones. aimed at ancaps only. https://discord.gg/HKcqGDZ


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So we all agree here that liberty and freedom are desirable, that's what we want. So let me start from there.

Basically my argument is that the only thing that can guarantee your freedom, is force/might/violence. Your freedom is not guaranteed by any moth eaten scrolls, or rotting statesmen, or anything in this life. Judges can basically rape you for a parking ticket, cops can murder you, banks can take over everything you owned 1 second ago and it doesnt even matter where you live because at least one of those happened there.

Whether you drown or swim across the ocean depends on your own force, the universe doesnt take any other currency. Whether a hungry bear eats you alive or you apply enough stopping power to stop it, depends only on the amount of force you have. Whether you are a criminal or not, depends only on the force of the state to catch you, because getting caught is the only thing all sentenced criminals share, not murder or theft or even innocence because there is at least 1 example of them getting away or being wrongly sentenced. Getting caught is the only crime. Taxation is theft, and yet the state gets away with it because of its force, meaning everything is legal as long as you can enforce it, only crime is not having enough force.

Force is the fundamental unit of justice, and military, and economy, and diplomacy, and politics, and philosophy, and morality, because if you are "right" but cant enforce your rightness, how the fuck are you even right, or what is the difference between being right or wrong when you dont have the force to enforce one over the other?


If you love/want personal liberty,

you must obtain force, that is your purpose, just obtaining force.

And if joining communism/antifa/police force/nazis/nationalists/whatever, you should do it.



Oh boy. This sentence here perfectly exemplifies where you're wrong:

>Taxation is theft, and yet the state gets away with it because of its force

And where did it get that force from? From the consent of most of its subjects. If everyone stopped believing that what the state did was right, then how could it enforce its whims and laws? There's one cop for every two-hundreth or three-hundredth inhabitant of your country. Why aren't most of these inhabitants dangeorus criminals, and why aren't the cops among those dangerous criminals? They could easily get away with it. Yet, we see that people, as a general thing, do not commit crime at every opportunity. All but the most savage people in modern society do respect other people and their property most of the time. Not just that, they often even feel bad for breaking the law. There are studies and books on the kinds of neutralization techniques that criminals use to convince themselves that they aren't bad persons.

>or what is the difference between being right or wrong when you dont have the force to enforce one over the other?

I never got this opinion. You just made every moral category superfluous and devoid of content, so why not do away with them completely? But then it becomes obvious that you run into the same problems as all emotivist positions. You make every discourse on ethics unintelligible by reducing statements that clearly pretend to have a universal application to entirely subjective opinions. I have never met a person who consistently treated ethical judgements on the same level as judgements of whether his ice was tasty or not. Not even the worst Stirnerfags can do that. The fact that your theory cannot be applied by real people without stumbling over it every two seconds should give you pause to think on whether you're really doing it right.

Damn physicalists ruined it all. You cannot even describe most objects without invoking their telos. Try describing a car in purely physical terms. You'll have trouble differentiating it from planes and wheelchairs because these things, two, can drive. If you look at the telos of aPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

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>It says here you visit slash lib-ur-tee slash, which the federal government has deemed to be an illegal channel of information spreading far right propaganda

>you know under current laws you can be convicted for up to 15 years if the court finds you guilty


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It is a human and this is a fallible machine.

I'm saying that (((they))) would gladly side with the right to defend their interests in killing thé resistors.

The freikorps and all of that, but I don't think you'll ever understand you cunts.



illegal in germany



The right are the resistors, right wing ideology is banned in Europe, and you are supported by Jewish billionaires. Also no you are not human, all you'll ever be is a golem for your masters.



This, just about. Of course, you can be a totalitarian all you want, but if you pack out one of those racisms, you dun goofed.




>commies wait for revolution


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I'm kinda black pilled about the world fam. Not wanting to varg out completely but I don't see good things on the horizon for the West. Europe continues getting enriched, the USA might face a civil war within a decade, Africa and the Middle East are pumping out babies and immigrants while Israel is expanding.

Media orchestrating a total hysteria, like they did in pre WWII times, people in academia that should know better are talking absolute gibberish because they're blinded by ideology.

Oh yeah and meanwhile feminism and lgbtq are ruining gender relations completely, which only further weakens the morale of people. All while banks and governments are taking away your shekels.

Commies are scum, the right is impotent and delusional and libertarians are meme lords that should simply call their ideology X because it could stand for pretty much anything.

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Yeah but no more Israel = no more mass immigration from the middle east and africa into europe


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Things aren't so bad anon :^)


So I read part of Kaczynski shit. Sounds really applicable to today. He was still a fucking autist who decided blowing up people was somehow a good idea.




Yeah, he had some great insights on the leftist mind. It deserved a better reception in the academic community, even though he misdiagnosed the problem.

He said, however, that many of the published versions of his essay are badly mangled. The real one is in some book, Technological Slavery. I haven't read it yet, though.

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how does one convince a european that rights aren't granted by the state

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Thanks, I've been lurking. It's usually not worth putting on the FLM name. I try to maintain a certain standard of post under it.



Shit bro, reverse is just as bad, I know plenty of Americans who believe that the State grants rights.


what is david friedma's opinion on nature of rights?



He doesn't believe in them. Even wrote a pretty cancerous chapter in The Machinery of Freedom, a book that's very good otherwise, on the Rothbardian theory of rights and why he doesn't follow it. To him, anarchocapitalism is preferable because it's efficient, not because it's inherently just.

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If you don't like the policies of a country why don't you just move to a different one that is more in line with your views?



Is that a setup for telling us that the status quo is already like our proposed system, in that we can just switch landlords if we don't like our current one? This doesn't work, in the first instance because how someone acquired his property is not some minor detail, it's crucial. Whether my landlord evicts me from the house he build with his own hands, or from the house that I built but which he claims belongs to him because all his drinking buddies think so, makes a major difference.

Second, states are not like property owners in that their territorial sovereignty exceeds the authority granted through land ownership. The landowners powers derive from his power to evict. The state, on the contrary, can even prohibit your emigration, and harass you after you left his territory.

Now, to answer your question: I got strong ties to my country. Family, education/job, language, and familiarity. I don't rule out emigration, but that's written in the future.



It works when the commies complain about wage slavery



It's not the same thing. If a commie complains about wage "slavery" or worker """exploitation""", all he has to do is create a co-op inside a capitalistic system, which he can do in almost any(if not all) western countries. A libertarian/ancap complains about taxes, because they violate property rights. For that, he would have to move into the mountains/desert/moon, but after he creates a prosperous society a neighbouring state will come in and demand taxes from him. It's more like saying that if you don't agree with the mafia protecting your store, you should move to another city/country, but that would legitimize the mafia's control over your property which is just as fallacious as the state's claim on it.



I will, even if it will cost me nearly everything I own. Luckily, I'm not attached to family or land. Keep in mind moving to another country is not an easy task.



what about state moving to encompas only peole who want to buy their services? google: panarchy

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